Chasing Scratch (the Podcast)

[iacas]

FWIW, and though I know it's only January… I think they're doing well and actually making some decent technical changes.

[Big C]

@iacas are you still keeping updated on this podcast?

They are now 20 episodes into the 6th season, and Mike came to a groundbreaking realization. He is now convinced that his (and Eli's) main problem was not swing related, but rather...............wait for it............ The Mental Game!

I know we have had our disagreements in the past on the relative importance of the mental game. And I have to confess I got a chuckle when I thought of you listening to the most recent episodes and tossing your cell phone in disgust while listening to Mike's conclusion. 

Have you been staying updating on the podcast and what are your thoughts on the 6th season if so?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Big C said:

 

Have you been staying updating on the podcast and what are your thoughts on the 6th season if so?

Yes.

I think they're jumping to another thing. Mike hit a 3W out of bounds, but if you listen to it again… he'd just hit a good 3W on the previous hole, and was feeling good about it, and was picturing hitting the same shot… and then hit it OB instead. A pull-draw instead of a push-draw, IIRC.

So what in his mental game needed to be different? He described pretty positive things.

Plus, they've HAD a mental game guy for awhile (Dr. Jay, IIRC).

I think they should keep on the swing stuff. They talk about how they play horribly in “majors” but they play horribly often outside of majors, too. Not all the time, so maybe they play a bit worse in majors. Or maybe it's just a small sample size. Or maybe they're working so hard to record everything, they are in a bit of a rush, and the solution is as simple as recognizing that and doing something tiny about it.

I’m sure there are some shots to be saved from the mental game… but again, what would he do differently about his 3W OB?

It’s amazing how much better your mental game is when you hit it better. 😄 Maybe they should learn to hit more greens rather than lowering their expectations.

IMO they need to stick with what they were doing. They were seeing results. But I think their early success led to them thinking “we’ve done it!” not “Oh good, let’s keep going, it’s starting to work.”

They’re doing better but they’re still jumping around too much. “Safety first” is my favorite. That lasted… a few holes? 😄 And after really good results, too?

[iacas]

@Big C, another person elsewhere said this, and I concur for the most part with this:

Quote

I do think Mike and Eli are mental midgets, and I do think golf is hard mentally and emotionally. So they probably do have a stroke or 2 to gain when in competition by improving their ability to process data and emotions for 18 holes.

But if they think that’s the biggest thing keeping them from shooting 73 when they compete they’ve got some other stuff to learn. We all know that it’s easier to hit a shot on the range than on the course. It’s not cuz we’re not tough mentally, it’s because under the pressure to perform we all go back to habits. So until something is so engrained as a default habit, it’s gonna break down under pressure.

Short version is they gotta practice until the changes they’re making are their muscle memory default.

Another said:

Quote

This. Many years ago, I worked with a golf mental coach and, while he was helpful in many ways, the one thing he said all the time that was extremely true (and kind of undercut his utility) was that the only way to get better under pressure is to get better at golf. There aren’t really any mental tricks that work. When the heat is on, your performance is going to struggle so if you want to do well in those situations, you need to raise your floor as high as possible. That’s really the only foolproof way to get good under pressure.

I agree with both.

[GolfLug]

I listened to episode 20 and into 21 where they are still on the mental game discussion. To be fair they are somewhat challenging their own 'its gotta be mental' narrative.

IMHO, to shoot a 73 on command in high pressure situations, you have to be shooting 67s routinely.  So yes, their mental flaw is that they are underestimating how high their floor needs to be. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by GolfLug

[iacas]

6 hours ago, GolfLug said:

I listened to episode 20 and into 21 where they are still on the mental game discussion. To be fair they are somewhat challenging their own 'its gotta be mental' narrative.

IMHO, to shoot a 73 on command in high pressure situations, you have to be shooting 67s routinely.  So yes, their mental flaw is that they are underestimating how high their floor needs to be. 

Thanks for bumping this. I wanted to add to it given episode 21, like you said.

• They mentioned that really old study about loss aversion, but didn't mention Mark Broadie's study which adjusted for first putts versus second putts. That removed almost all of the difference in make rates and made it much smaller. It didn't completely eliminate the loss aversion, which I do think still exists, but it made it nearly negligible.
• They misunderstood the study, then, too, in talking about punching out and giving up your chance for par (or something?). No, that's not it. I forget a bunch of the specifics here, but I kept shaking my head when they were trying to say "oh, you mean like…" and then they'd list some situation.
• I think relying on Mike's brother "Mr. Bold" to talk about "System 1" and "System 2" was a mistake. I don't think that was anything close to "expert-level" analysis. Those are almost entirely dealing with mental things — golf is not just mental. It's not multiplying 24 and 17, it's not navigating your way home by paying some attention to Waze. Golf is physical.
• In the gauntlet rounds this past time, Eli literally chose to ignore his game plan and topped a 3W 30 yards, or something. I mean, that's a mental game mistake, yes, but also… hitting your 3W that badly is NOT a mental game mistake.
• Mike shot +10 in a non-competitive round. It's a 7.2 differential. That's at home, so it's not like he's shooting great scores at home and then crapping the bed at "majors."
• I think that as they practice less and play more… they're losing out on some of the changes they've made.

Just because I was curious, I pulled down their last 100 rounds from GHIN and got their differentials. I put them in a chart (you can download the data below), and then created this image:

(You can click the link to see the image larger, or view it in the tweet below.) Note that though this is their last 100 rounds, They don't both play as frequently. Eli plays more than Mike, so Eli's last 100 rounds date to August, 2020 while Mike's go back to March, 2020.

The HTML and .csv (it's actually a tab delimited file, but I know spreadsheets will import files with that extension) of their last 100 rounds are here (https://share.getcloudapp.com/Jrue6KOP) if you want to play around with it for yourself.

@Big C, since you asked… what do you think of Episodes 20 and 21?

[iacas]

 

[saevel25]

It is easy to blame the mental game because people do not want to believe just how hard it is to become good at golf. Obviously, it has to be something easily explained, the mental game is the issue. If I just had more focus, I would save those 8 strokes I lost during the round. 

I like the idea of keeping stats, there might be some low hanging fruit to work on. In the end, ball striking is king, and full swing work is a grind. 

[Big C]

@iacas I think they are grasping again. They started the season committing to a more holistic approach, appreciating the improvements they have made, sticking to their swing plan and trying not to be so hung up on the scores they are shooting as a measure of the success or failure of their project. Now after a few months of dissapointing scores, Mike has another “breakthrough” realization that he believes will set them on the right path again. 
 

I do think it’s a bit unusual that their competitive rounds together always seem to finish in the 80s. For a couple of guys with indexes from 4-6, you would think at least one of them would manage to cobble together a decent round during their matches. And I am consistently surprised by the number of doubles (or more) that pop up in their scorecard readings. So maybe course management could improve?

But no- I don’t think it’s the lightbulb moment that Mike seems to think it is.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Big C said:

@iacas I think they are grasping again. They started the season committing to a more holistic approach, appreciating the improvements they have made, sticking to their swing plan and trying not to be so hung up on the scores they are shooting as a measure of the success or failure of their project. Now after a few months of dissapointing scores, Mike has another “breakthrough” realization that he believes will set them on the right path again.

Agreed.

4 minutes ago, Big C said:

I do think it’s a bit unusual that their competitive rounds together always seem to finish in the 80s. For a couple of guys with indexes from 4-6, you would think at least one of them would manage to cobble together a decent round during their matches. And I am consistently surprised by the number of doubles (or more) that pop up in their scorecard readings. So maybe course management could improve?

Probably.

But also… look at it this way. If you expect 1 out of 5 scores to better your index, and you're a 4… what's a 4 shoot on a 73.4/136 course?

4 = (x - 73.4) * 113/136
4*136/113 = x - 73.4
73.4 + 4*136/113 = x
73.4 + 4.8 = x
x = 78.2

So, only 1 out of 5 rounds will beat that score.

And… I think the course they played is 73.7/134. So a little higher (78.4).

7 minutes ago, Big C said:

But no- I don’t think it’s the lightbulb moment that Mike seems to think it is.

I concur.

[iacas]

I'm almost done with the Final Major podcast and… because it's match play they don't reveal their scores. I'm not even sure they post them (there's nothing on GHIN after their Tobacco Road rounds).

I'll wait a bit but have a few brief thoughts later on.

They showed all 18 holes of their final major course, though:

Suffice to say… it's not a great looking course, and it seems to be pretty scoreable… despite them never really scoring well there. Many of the holes have some obvious "miss it left here" type shots where you'll, what, be in the rough with a clear line to the green?

[iacas]

So, a few thoughts.

• They still shot like 81 or something, right? Eli hit two OB. I rarely heard about many birdies. They three-putted the first hole. They haven't posted scores to GHIN yet (and they may not since they may be unaware of the fact that you're still supposed to post match play rounds). Does anyone have a scorecard?
• The course stinks. A spectator, I think, made a comment in the podcast about how the course couldn't be much better and I was just wondering "huh?" The videos make the course look pretty bad.
• Their strategy still seems really bad. In looking at the overhead/drone footage, there are seemingly a LOT of places to miss their tee shots, but they often seem to be aiming at the fairway. Sometimes the line is in the rough or the edge of the fairway. Not going to die on this hill as I could be wrong; tough to tell from a podcast. Just sounded like far too many punch outs or tree trouble shots.
• Eli saying about Mike that he "showed growth" because of his tee shot on 18… c'mon fellas. One shot doesn't "show growth." Maybe winning the final major showed growth, but if ONE tee shot shows growth, what does the top into the water 50 yards in front of the tee box show? Bigger sample sizes please.
• They don't care as much about whether they get to scratch next year? Exactly. Because if they did I'm not sure whether they'd continue the podcast, and then what would they do with their income? Maybe that's overly cynical, but…
• They *finally* made decent progress again, and how? By focusing on their mechanics and taking lessons. Not by "hammering nails" or doing a ton of mental game stuff or even worrying about nutrition and exercise. Eli took like 30 to 50 lessons from Ward, Mike worked with Nickol… finally.

A member here texted me at the end and said:

Quote

I think they are doing too many episodes or something. Show doesn’t hit me the way it used to.

I concur. I'll probably listen next year, but the jokes have become less, they've become more serious, and so on. Good for them — good for their golf games — but I end up tuning out a lot more often because the joking and the need to pay attention is lesser.

[iacas]

[iacas]

I wonder why the family would ask that it be taken down. Carl was great in the interview. Said nothing remotely controversial. Praised fellow actors, people, football players, and gave inspirational advice. Was graceful, grateful, and humble.

I could only hope my last words (in public) are as Carl’s were.

[Big C]

Their recent podcast recapped a 2 day NC Amateur event that Mike participated in this February. Playing off a 6 handicap, he shot a 97 and a 102.

Kudos to him for facing up to it with a positive attitude. If I had posted similar scores in year 7 of my quest, I would probably just shut the entire project down.

[GolfLug]

17 minutes ago, Big C said:

Their recent podcast recapped a 2 day NC Amateur event that Mike participated in this February. Playing off a 6 handicap, he shot a 97 and a 102.

Kudos to him for facing up to it with a positive attitude. If I had posted similar scores in year 7 of my quest, I would probably just shut the entire project down.

Wow. Ouch. I don't know how anyone could genuinely come away with any positives given the context. I'm going to give it a listen.

[4zim]

18 minutes ago, Big C said:

Their recent podcast recapped a 2 day NC Amateur event that Mike participated in this February. Playing off a 6 handicap, he shot a 97 and a 102.

Kudos to him for facing up to it with a positive attitude. If I had posted similar scores in year 7 of my quest, I would probably just shut the entire project down.

I’m glad Mike didn’t quit and good on him for posting. In the past he’s talked about losing shots with his short game and it seems that’s the area he needs the most practice. 
 

I still think he’s playing golf swing and not golf. Great on the range but it doesn’t translate. Maybe he needs to read LSW?

[NZ Golfer]

On 11/7/2023 at 7:34 AM, iacas said:

So, a few thoughts.

• They still shot like 81 or something, right? Eli hit two OB. I rarely heard about many birdies. They three-putted the first hole. They haven't posted scores to GHIN yet (and they may not since they may be unaware of the fact that you're still supposed to post match play rounds). Does anyone have a scorecard?
• The course stinks. A spectator, I think, made a comment in the podcast about how the course couldn't be much better and I was just wondering "huh?" The videos make the course look pretty bad.
• Their strategy still seems really bad. In looking at the overhead/drone footage, there are seemingly a LOT of places to miss their tee shots, but they often seem to be aiming at the fairway. Sometimes the line is in the rough or the edge of the fairway. Not going to die on this hill as I could be wrong; tough to tell from a podcast. Just sounded like far too many punch outs or tree trouble shots.
• Eli saying about Mike that he "showed growth" because of his tee shot on 18… c'mon fellas. One shot doesn't "show growth." Maybe winning the final major showed growth, but if ONE tee shot shows growth, what does the top into the water 50 yards in front of the tee box show? Bigger sample sizes please.
• They don't care as much about whether they get to scratch next year? Exactly. Because if they did I'm not sure whether they'd continue the podcast, and then what would they do with their income? Maybe that's overly cynical, but…
• They *finally* made decent progress again, and how? By focusing on their mechanics and taking lessons. Not by "hammering nails" or doing a ton of mental game stuff or even worrying about nutrition and exercise. Eli took like 30 to 50 lessons from Ward, Mike worked with Nickol… finally.

A member here texted me at the end and said:

I concur. I'll probably listen next year, but the jokes have become less, they've become more serious, and so on. Good for them — good for their golf games — but I end up tuning out a lot more often because the joking and the need to pay attention is lesser.

Yes, I listened to the first couple of seasons but just lost interest in the content .. I think they have proven as many of us already know it's really hard to get to scratch ... esp as we age .... 

I was feeling confident in hitting my target this year of 5HC range(got to low 6s) but hit a wall in my short game in a few comps and now just over 9HC !!!! ...gutted but know it can go down just as fast esp during summer only 2-3 holes killing my score every round .. mental issues with one PAR3 at my local I think I've had a PAR on once in 20+ rds... I have great respect for anyone playing off low singles + golfers ...very impressive skills 

 

I do wonder how playing different courses can help one's HC aspirations ... my local is well know tough greens and tight lies to bare sand pockets close to fairways/greens.. 

my closest 18 holes course I play at and score much better on average ..last three rounds +7 +6 +3 ..Vs my course best +6 with many much higher