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andef

Stack and Tilt's Future

86 posts in this topic

I just read this article on golfdigest / golfworld and immediately thought of posting it here.

I'm just looking to see what people think of it, and in particular hear the opinion of those who have embraced or teach the S&T.;

As a "disclaimer", I have not against / in favor of the S&T.; Not trying to bash it or anything like that, just wanted to hear what people's ideas are.

Here's the link:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2011/02/golf-world-monday-stack-and-tilts-future.html

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I think it's silly to call it "the end." What's his proof? That a guy who won twice and led the U.S. Open and rose to 17th in the world while being coached by Mike and Andy won again after leaving? That Mike and Andy teach more guys on the PGA Tour than any other instructor?

Mike Weir finished almost dead last at the Northern Trust. Why even mention him? He was in a freefall, rose while under Mike/Andy's tutelage, and since leaving is in another freefall.

What are they going to say when Tiger wins again and praises his new swing? Are they just going to take Foley's word that it's different than S&T;? Probably, because they're just journalists.... and "S&T;" still sells.

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It's not holding up? (according to the writer)

I don't know.

Tour Pros won with S&T.;

Tour pros win with lots of swings.

From what I heard on the Charlie Rose interview w/ B&P;, some tour pros get the basics, win with it, and think that's it (I think they were alluding to Badds). They don't want to learn any more, or won't do more advanced work. For example, Badds and his problems with the driver - if you look at the S&T; vault, they have vids on the driver set up.

Or look at the many Joe Amateurs on these forums who think they can pick up a Golf Digest Article and pick up S&T.; Then they pan it when it didn't work for them. All I can say is that if they think they're gonna pick up S&T; by themselves with a few looks at pictures in a magazine and a little bit of text explanation, then they are deluding themselves...

It's like anything else in golf. There are clubs that work for you and clubs that don't. There are swings that work for you, and swings that don't -- it's people and the quality of instruction -- they vary.

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I think the point it went wrong for "Stack & Tilt" was when Andy and Mike were pushed into giving it a specific name; if it was just taught as a different way of swinging the club there'd be much less stigma attached to it, it would just be a different way of swinging the club and playing good golf.

If I'm at the range and someone sees me keeping my weight centered and asks what I'm working on, if I say "Centered turn and maintaining the angle in my right wrist at impact" I get a thoughtful "Hmmm" as a reply. When I used to reply "It's the Stack & Tilt swing" I was laughed at, irrelevant of how I was striking the ball.

That's the same for the "new hot coach" in Foley. Everyone and his dog is queuing up to suck the guy's toes even though the majority of what he's doing is S&T; but is denied as being so; it's ridiculous!

Baddeley has taken TWO YEARS since parting ways with Andy and Mike (at a world ranking of 34!) to win but now that he has "Stack and Tilt is dead"? Congrats to Aaron on his win and 73rd world ranking however - A bit more improvement and he'll be back where he was two years ago.

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That really wasn't much of an article, now was it?  Could it signal the end of journalism?

This comment is being made by someone who does not have a dog in this fight.

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I am always amused when the good play or poor play of a pro golfer is attributed to the teacher.  Tiger will win sometime this year with his fourth, fifth, or more  if you count his father, and early childhood  teachers.  I am certain he has learned and benefited from each of them.  The key is taking what you have learned, choosing what you believe in, working hard to develop the skills and confidence to succeed.  I recently read a compilation of golf instruction methods, dating from the 1920s to late 1990s, from a book I found at the library.  Some of them were little more than quackery in my opinion, but all had wide followings at one time.  I feel I picked up a couple of things reading it, nothing that would change my basic swing.  Instruction makes a difference, but the major reason for success or failure lie with the golfer.

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What has a player not utilizing all S&T; principles got to do with the future of the pattern? The logic is so flawed, I don't even want to get started.

It's like saying Tiger Woods is done because he didn't win his last tournament.

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Originally Posted by Zeph

It's like saying Tiger Woods is done because he didn't win his last tournament.


But, that's true! Haven't you read that! C'mon Zeph, get with the program! :-)

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This article could be a prelude to the future of Golf Digest, which sees the introduction of an "Instruction Hot List."  In this instance they put S&T; tuition on the obsolete list.

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Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

I think the point it went wrong for "Stack & Tilt" was when Andy and Mike were pushed into giving it a specific name; if it was just taught as a different way of swinging the club there'd be much less stigma attached to it, it would just be a different way of swinging the club and playing good golf.

If I'm at the range and someone sees me keeping my weight centered and asks what I'm working on, if I say "Centered turn and maintaining the angle in my right wrist at impact" I get a thoughtful "Hmmm" as a reply. When I used to reply "It's the Stack & Tilt swing" I was laughed at, irrelevant of how I was striking the ball.

That's the same for the "new hot coach" in Foley. Everyone and his dog is queuing up to suck the guy's toes even though the majority of what he's doing is S&T; but is denied as being so; it's ridiculous!

Baddeley has taken TWO YEARS since parting ways with Andy and Mike (at a world ranking of 34!) to win but now that he has "Stack and Tilt is dead"? Congrats to Aaron on his win and 73rd world ranking however - A bit more improvement and he'll be back where he was two years ago.


I think 'giving it a name' was brilliant for marketing and the only real way to generate buzz and sell books / DVDs.  What I can't stand is people (broadcasters, writers, etc) embracing or discrediting a 'swing' because someone won.  If he had lost be 2 strokes, would they have written that S&T; is 'dead'?

He won because he made a number of putts over the 4 days that separated him from the others.  Yes, the better you strike the ball, the more opportunities you'll have to make those putts, however, he made a number of long range putts and also ones from the fringe on Sunday.  That has NOTHING to do with what swing he was/is using.

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Originally Posted by TheGeekGolfer

I think 'giving it a name' was brilliant for marketing and the only real way to generate buzz and sell books / DVDs.  What I can't stand is people (broadcasters, writers, etc) embracing or discrediting a 'swing' because someone won.  If he had lost be 2 strokes, would they have written that S&T; is 'dead'?

He won because he made a number of putts over the 4 days that separated him from the others.  Yes, the better you strike the ball, the more opportunities you'll have to make those putts, however, he made a number of long range putts and also ones from the fringe on Sunday.  That has NOTHING to do with what swing he was/is using.



I guess that's true. I'd never have heard of it if it hadn't become infamous and made people take note and start teaching it. I guess the (poor!!) argument I was (badly!!) trying to make is that now it's a dirty word for anyone who doesn't practice it. If the components were taught separately and not labelled people would be more open to it.

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What a useless article that proves how much people live in "snapshot picture" world vs. a "big picture" world.

Focusing Aaron's win yesterday and then equating that singular moment to the dismissal of S&T; may be the biggest "snapshot picture" analysis I have ever seen.

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It was a biased article that probably wouldn't have made it through the editors desk in print media, but I think Aaron Baddeley's "trip through the wilderness" could be "blamed" on something completely different - He had a couple kids a couple years ago!

As one of the commentators said yesterday "He hasn't been in a slump - he was being a Dad". Hardly anything to do with what swing he's making...

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Seriously?  In less than 200 words, this jack-wagon has the gall to proclaim the system dead?

I have a question.  Have Mike and Andy been the only swing coach/teacher(s) for any of the Tour players that they are currently with?  By that, I mean are there any guys who they have been working with since they were juniors picking up a club for the first time?

I'm asking, because I don't know.

If not, then I would point to their way of teaching as a huge success, not based on Tour wins, but rather on the fact that touring professionals would turn their swings over to them at all.  In other words, the guys that they are working with - as touring professionals - already have a very highly developed skill set.  They already make better, crisper contact with the golf ball than 99% of all golfers around the world.  If they can see an improvement, then it is definitely working.

The real proof is in how much hackers like me can improve.  Whether or not Charlie Wi wins on Tour or Aaron Baddeley wins with another teacher means nothing in regard to the fundamental validity of the system. I hit the ball a lot more solidly because of it, so I know it works.  All the David Leadbetter/Hank Haney/Butch Harmon tips in Golf Digest over the years haven't brought me one-one-hundredth of the improvement that simply reading posts about it on this site have.  Someday, when I can afford it, I want to take an actual lesson or ten and really get my game in order.  Until then, I'll have to be content with simply striking the ball better than I ever have in the twenty years I've been playing the game.

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The Morning Drive guys called it "Stack and Wilt" today. Clearly the party's over.

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Originally Posted by JetFan1983

The Morning Drive guys called it "Stack and Wilt" today. Clearly the party's over.


Is that show still on?

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Originally Posted by iacas

Is that show still on?


I watched it once or twice...I would rather watch another 'Hammer' infomercial.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Is that show still on?



Apparently they don't have any infomercials to fill the morning slot.  I watched it once, for about 20 minutes, and I couldn't take any more.  If I want mindless morning chatter I'll listen to the tools on AM radio or ask my wife about what she's read on TMZ lately.

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