Plugged ball in the rough.

[klund]

Looking for a answer regarding lifting the ball to see if its plugged. There was no local rule for free releif but i was interested to see if it was plugged to decide my shot. I said i wanted to identify my ball. Was i within the rules even if my ball could be identified without lifting it? A decision or rule reference would be helpful?

[natureboy]

Without a local rule or casual water, I think you are SOL unless it's closely-mown area through the green or on the putting surface. Unplayable is probably your best option.

[ColinL]

You may lift a ball  to see if you are entitled to relief but as there is no local rule allowing relief from an embedded ball through the green, you could not lift your ball.

Of course you could pretend to need to lift your ball  for identification, but  if you chose to do so, it would simply say something about your integrity as a player. You must allow your fellow competitor or opponent to observe what you are doing and it would be my hope that he could see that your identification mark was clearly visible and catch you out.

That’s right, I don’t like what you are proposing to do.

[klund]

i replaced the ball and dug it out to make "birdie" on a par 5 but penalized myself one moving my ball at rest and lost the match! this was on the last hole!

as i also thought i was SOL after i saw there was no local rule!

This should be a new rule! im guessing all tours major and minor have this as a standard rule!

[HonestyPolicy]

Here's the problem with making lots of local rules.

First there's the cheater:

He has run his entire life by finding out how to use the rules to his advantage, or at least that's what he calls it. Really what he believes is that all is fair as long as you don't get caught. Some even think getting caught isn't so bad, you just deny it, or make up your own rule to counter it even if it's obvious you're being a jerk. They just "lie and deny"......anyway, a local rule allowing embedded ball rules through the green as a permanent thing will cause cheaters who don't like their lie in the rough to step on their ball and call it embedded so they can get relief. Cheaters already have a million ways to get around the rules. Let's not give them another.

Then there's the culture:

My home course keeps the "preferred lies" sign up all year long because the culture of the club demands it. There are times when we need preferred lies, but most times we don't. If the committee attempts to change it to "play the ball down", event participation is greatly reduced. People get used to playing pick, clean, and place all year round, or said another way, they never learn how to play the ball down, and over time they don't want to play the ball down and won't play in events when they have to. So the club, in the interest of participation and all the financial things that go along with that, has accepted it as the norm now even though clearly the USGA encourages preferred lies to be temporary until the condition causing the need is resolved. So making the embedded ball rule "through the green" a local permanent rule, just adds to changing peoples expectations and awareness of the real rules and eventually changes the entire clubs culture.

The "rub of the green" :

As much as we'd all like to think that the game is all about ability, there is luck as well that is involved, good luck and bad luck. It is part of the game and some local rules put forth by committees or club pros designed to reduce the bad luck portion of the game may come as welcome changes to most players, but they compromise the game. If one was playing cards, does one ask for another hand to be dealt out to him after he sees that he doesn't like the cards of the original hand he's been dealt? No, he does the best with what he's been given based on the "luck of the draw". It's the same with golf, you perform the best you can and you accept what you've been given. Sometimes the Golf Gods' are with you and sometimes they are not.

Running a golf course, I got to see a lot. It seems to me that the more local rules you put in place, the less members want to follow the real rules. Now a committee just can't change a rule of golf, but they can do many other things that can change a players behavior, the clubs expectations, and the entire culture of the club to the point where everyone wants a new local rule every time something happens that someone doesn't like. It is a shame that you lost what appears to have been an important match,  but accepting it as part of the game and moving on graciously will be a great show of character on your part and a great example to those who look up to you as a low handicapper.

Cheers and as they say, Better Luck Next Time!

[mdl]

I don't understand the actual ruling yet.

Say you hit into some relatively deep rough where it's fairly hard to find your ball.  You go where you think your ball is and you see a ball you honestly can't identify, and the way it's plugged and in pretty deep rough, it's totally plausible either that this is a lost ball that's not yours or that it's yours.  Then, is your legit option to declare that the ball is unplayable and pick it up?  Then what happens if it is your ball?  What if it's not?  Have you technically played the wrong ball in that case?  Was there another option?  Could you unplug it, see that it's yours, and then replug it and play it without penalty?

[HonestyPolicy]

Looking for a answer regarding lifting the ball to see if its plugged.

There was no local rule for free releif but i was interested to see if it was plugged to decide my shot.

I said i wanted to identify my ball. Was i within the rules even if my ball could be identified without lifting it?

A decision or rule reference would be helpful?

Matt, go back and read the OP post again, above. He says "was he within the rules to say he wanted to identify his ball even if he could identify it without lifting it?" and the answer is no, if you can identify your ball then there is no need to lift it for the purposes of identification.

Now taking up one of your questions, the "let's say he couldn't identify it while it was plugged" question, the answer is yes he could then identify it, but if you read the rules on how you go about identifying your ball, after identifying it as his ball he would need to replace it back into the same lie meaning back in the plugged lie and his competitor is suppose to be given the opportunity to observe the whole process to assure that he does recreate the original lie. So..... unless there is a local rule stating embedded ball is "through the green" he can not get relief even if he needed to identify it. Understand?

[dkolo]

I don't understand the actual ruling yet. Say you hit into some relatively deep rough where it's fairly hard to find your ball.  You go where you think your ball is and you see a ball you honestly can't identify, and the way it's plugged and in pretty deep rough, it's totally plausible either that this is a lost ball that's not yours or that it's yours.  Then, is your legit option to declare that the ball is unplayable and pick it up?  Then what happens if it is your ball?  What if it's not?  Have you technically played the wrong ball in that case?  Was there another option?  Could you unplug it, see that it's yours, and then replug it and play it without penalty?

You can pretty much always pick the ball up to identify it, provided that you identify your intentions, mark it, and take care not to clean it. Once you've identified it as yours, if you don't get relief for a plugged lie, you must recreate your lie, which means replugging it as best you can. This is straight up Rule 12-2.

[mdl]

You can pretty much always pick the ball up to identify it, provided that you mark it and take care not to clean it. Once you've identified it as yours, if you don't get relief for a plugged lie, you must recreate your lie, which means replugging it as best you can.

Okay, so I understand half of the answer now.  You're always allowed to mark and lift to identify.  But the condition is that you recreate your lie.  I was envisioning a situation where that's not totally possible.  Say your ball is plugged in some pretty soft/wet ground, kind of suctioned in, so it's 100% unplayable.  Maybe at best you could gouge the s**t out of it and hope for pulling a strip of mud out of the ground with the ball still stuck in the middle of it.

But then you unplug it to identify.  That sort of unsuctions it.  So even if you place your ball back to the bottom of the hole it came from, maybe now it's much more likely you could successfully dig it out with your next stroke, and advance it a bit or get it into a better spot for your next shot than you could with an unplayable drop or whatever.  What's the ruling there?  Is it still allowed, at least under the letter of the rules, since you marked, lifted, and IDed and then recreated your lie to the best degree possible (I'm assuming that doesn't include, say, stepping on it to recreate the "suction" effect)?

[DaveP043]

"If a player believes that a ball at rest might be his, but he cannot identify it , the player may lift the ball for identification, without penalty. The right to lift a ball for identification is in addition to the actions permitted under Rule 12-1 ."

This is from Rule 12-2.  As I read this, if the player CAN identify his ball, he may not mark it and lift it.  Further on in Rule 12-2 we find:

"If the ball is the player's ball and he fails to comply with all or any part of this procedure, or he lifts his ball in order to identify it without having good reason to do so , he incurs a penalty of one stroke ."

If he CAN identify it initially, he lacks a good reason to lift it for identification.  If he lifts it, he'd incur a penalty of one stroke.

[dkolo]

Okay, so I understand half of the answer now.  You're always allowed to mark and lift to identify.  But the condition is that you recreate your lie.  I was envisioning a situation where that's not totally possible.  Say your ball is plugged in some pretty soft/wet ground, kind of suctioned in, so it's 100% unplayable.  Maybe at best you could gouge the s**t out of it and hope for pulling a strip of mud out of the ground with the ball still stuck in the middle of it. But then you unplug it to identify.  That sort of unsuctions it.  So even if you place your ball back to the bottom of the hole it came from, maybe now it's much more likely you could successfully dig it out with your next stroke, and advance it a bit or get it into a better spot for your next shot than you could with an unplayable drop or whatever.  What's the ruling there?  Is it still allowed, at least under the letter of the rules, since you marked, lifted, and IDed and then recreated your lie to the best degree possible (I'm assuming that doesn't include, say, stepping on it to recreate the "suction" effect)?

You do the best you can. Just like we take you at your word that you can't identify it without picking it up (a reasonable assumption if it's plugged), we take you at your word that you're recreating the lie as close as possible. I think you can recreate the suction effect in most cases, but if not, the ball's still in the plug fairly deep, so it's not massively different in practical terms.

[HonestyPolicy]

Matt,

I was in the process of answering you but DaveP043 beat me to it. Only thing I have to add is that you are right in that sometimes no matter how hard you try, you can not recreate the original lie. That's why they don't want you to lift it without good reason. But when the reason outweighs the chance that you might hit a wrong ball, they allow you to lift it (per the procedure) and if you do your best to recreate the lie, then that's the best you can get. Also see identifying your ball in a hazard, Rule 12-1 for balls plugged in hazards.