The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

***iacas*** · October 30, 2009

Just a general thread to consolidate the discussion. I don't have anything to start off with, so instead I'll quote

Why Stack and Tilt - is this so called "method" right for me? When Golf Digest asked Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer to co-author an article, the writer told the pair that the principles they teach their players needed a name. Thus, the name "Stack and Tilt" was born. Unfortunately, in the golf world, if you give a name to something like a set of fundamentals or principles, you may as well stick a target on it and give everyone a bunch of darts. This is both unfortunate and unfair but now that you have found this article please do your golf game a favor and read it with an open mind. FIRST and FOREMOST...I would like to point out virtually every instructor teaches a method of some type. That is, they believe certain things about the golf swing and their instruction is centered around that. The problem with most instruction and instructors is that their method is cloaked in mystery and the student does not actually get an explanation as to the why when they are being taught certain things...i.e....I want you to swing the club more straight back, only because the instructor "says so" - Instructors should be explaining to the student why they are giving certain advice and how it will affect the corresponding ball flight. Without a name for the critics - almost all of whom have no true understanding of Stack and Tilt principles - to target, I believe that it would be very easy to see that the Stack and Tilt model is built entirely upon classic swing mechanics. The principles involved are DISPLAYED prominently by a great majority of the finest players and major champions throughout history (important to note: based on what is actually displayed in their patterns not based on what they said or say they did). It was through Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett's cataloging and classifying the swings of these champions, average players, and poor players that Stack and Tilt even came to be. The patterns were always there, in the motions of the greatest players, but only recently has this information been collected and categorized in this manner. Everything you are told by a qualified Stack and Tilt instructor will be based in fact and you will know how any changes made are impacting your ball's flight (i.e. WHY). You will also be shown clearly on video and still photos how these changes look when implemented. We believe it is only logical to remove the mystery and we WANT you to ask questions as to WHY. Isnt this the point really? A point of note as an example: Recently on a golf telecast a very reputable analyst called Sean OHair's swing the best in the game today. Over the past six months Sean has spent time putting virtually every Stack and Tilt swing component into his game (GolfWeek article April, 09). This is not an accident and I, by the way, believe his motion is on par with the best in the game. The interesting part about this is that he displays many of the Stack and Tilt pieces every bit as well as a lot of the players that work directly with Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett on the PGA Tour. Here's where the contradiction comes in. During telecasts or in print these Stack and Tilt players are said to have problems with having a reverse weight shift...or they finish in a Reverse C...or that is great with irons but not with the driver...I could go on but you get the point. Because of the recent comments re: OHair it is clear that the negativity regarding S&T; is in the MIND of the critic only - let the pictures speak for themselves and you will see that without the stigma, the players who practice Stack and Tilt simply display exceptional mechanics and completely understand why their golf ball flies the way it does. SO...TO SUMMARIZE...If you are fine with hitting it shorter than you should, having no understanding of ball flight laws and why your ball is always curving AWAY from the target (instead of at it), as well as hitting shots fat and thin with no explanation, then I would say the naysayers are correct. The Stack and Tilt information is a "FAD" and you should stay away from it completely. IF, HOWEVER, you want to learn to swing the club at the greatest possible speed (for distance) with the most control (of the balls curve) and compress it at the same time (ball first contact) then this Stack and Tilt swing might just be for you!

This thread is for the discussion of the pattern: parts you find difficult, information about the pieces, the ball flight, the terms they use (most of which are TGM), etc. It's a place where people can get help with the pattern if they've adopted it or get information from others who have adopted it for those who are interested.

**mc0388** · October 30, 2009

I got the sales pitch....

What are the fundamentals of the swing?

***iacas*** · October 30, 2009

Unnecessary movement is eliminated, leading to crisper ball striking (far less or no more fat and thin shots). More power more easily, as you're coming at the ball from a proper angle and achieving better compression.

The best ball strikers in history exhibit a ton of the pieces in Stack and Tilt, some more than others, but modern examples include Sergio Garcia and several others.

Not gonna lay it on too thick with such a simple and wide open question, but the "inventors" were asked to sum it up in a few words, and those words were "weight forward." Not just on the backswing, but more so on the downswing. That's how you achieve good compression and make a divot in front of the golf ball.

**Rob** · October 30, 2009

I always look at the "stack and tilt pro`s?" and I don`t see them on the weekends{PGA} So,BS.IMO.

**mc0388** · October 30, 2009

The best ball strikers in history exhibit a ton of the pieces in Stack and Tilt, some more than others, but modern examples include Sergio Garcia and several others.

"a ton of pieces" . Would most of those pieces be from the top of the back-swing to the follow-thru?

***iacas*** · October 30, 2009

I always look at the "stack and tilt pro`s?" and I don`t see them on the weekends{PGA} So,BS.IMO.

Right. Like the guy who won the last PGA Tour event... and set the all-time 36-hole scoring record on the PGA Tour in the process.

Troy Matteson, btw.

"a ton of pieces" . Would most of those pieces be from the top of the back-swing to the follow-thru?

Not entirely sure I know what you mean. Most of the pieces relate to impact and the moves made to achieve a good impact position, yes.

But Sergio Garcia, for example - look at the top of his backswing positions at 1:15 and 2:30 here.

**Chief Broom** · October 30, 2009

Concerning S&T; with irons where is the ball in your stance? Obviously it will move based on shot requirements, but overall would you say you play the ball more forward or back? I take pretty healthy divots with my irons but I tend to play the ball back of center. I do this because I'll sometimes have a tendency to hit my irons fat.

**misty_mountainhop** · October 31, 2009

Is this thread trying to be pro-S&T; or what? It's a fad. It might work for some but not others...same as a "classical" weight shift. Find what's best for you...whatever it looks like.

"Weight forward" on the downswing? No shit Sherlock. If this doesn't happen, however you swing it, you'll find the game hard.

Try hitting a (consistent) driver using pure S&T......;

***iacas*** · October 31, 2009

Concerning S&T; with irons where is the ball in your stance?

Just ahead of middle for most clubs. I always played the ball a little farther back than a lot of people (the "inside the left heel" people), but I never got the ball behind center, so I haven't had to make any real adjustments.

Is this thread trying to be pro-S&T; or what? It's a fad.

It's a thread dedicated to the discussion of it. Are we to infer that your quick dismissal means that you won't be participating much?

It might work for some but not others...same as a "classical" weight shift. Find what's best for you...whatever it looks like.

How is something that "works," "same as" other types of swings, a fad?

Try hitting a (consistent) driver using pure S&T......;

Like Troy Matteson the past week? S&T; players are among the top guys in the Total Driving stat, and they have many long hitters among them as well.

**SQ Bimmer** · October 31, 2009

I know this is a horrible quality video...

The ideas make a lot of sense to me. Just a matter of testing it with proper implementation.

**14ledo81** · October 31, 2009

I just don't understand people who like to knock on the s and t swing method. I am new at golf. Just started this summer. I could not get a consistent swing down no matter what I did. I tried reading any golf related literature that I could get my hands on. Some things helped a little, some not at all. When I tried swinging using the s and t method though, I had immediate positive results. I can now hit an eight iron 145 yards. My driver used to slice terribly, now I can consistently hit 225 or better. Looking back, I think the instilling the weight forward thought made the biggest difference.
On a side note, I now struggle with fat shots. Is this a common miss with s and t'ers? And how can I fix it?

***iacas*** · November 1, 2009

It's not a common miss at all. Quite the opposite, if that's possible. Your weight may not be moving forward enough... though without seeing a swing, who knows... If your left shoulder is ahead of the ball, fat shouldn't be a big issue.

**MiniMoe** · November 1, 2009

I don't remember any of the greats of old putting their weight on the left side at address and stay there throughout the swing. But I might be wrong.

stack and tilt is not the easiest or most consistent method to swing a club and produce results... it a method of adjustments...Apparently, if two wrongs don't make a right, 10 wrongs does. ROTFL.

I'm not saying you can't play and score well with this method. There have been many players of old that had a consistent swing and they came over the top every time. They played a little fade that went a long way. Was their swing mechanically good. Maybe not, but it worked. I golf, all that matters is that it works on a consistent basis. I don't care what you do as long as you can do it every time.

Many look at my swing and think it is full of flaws, but I have learned how to hit is straight with what I have... so who am I to judge what works or does not work. All I know is don't believe everything you hear about the golf swing. No one person has all the answers. It is a trial and error to find out what works for you.

**mc0388** · November 1, 2009

But Sergio Garcia, for example - look at the top of his backswing positions at 1:15 and 2:30 here.

Sergio is below average in FIR using very a similar swing to the S&T; (1:15) and he is hitting a wood from the middle of his stance (2:30), he's prob plying a low draw.

I can definitely see the similarities, but Iacas... Wouldn't you agree: It is somewhat difficult to get off the tee with a S&T; setup?

**DBeane** · November 1, 2009

I guess I am going to have to read up on the Stack and Tilt so I can chime in on these discussions. I do think its funny that many of the swing "methods" that come down the pipe all point towards Hogan and say "look he did it", from the 1 plane, to the 8 step swing, I saw an infomercial talking about some "two cheek" swing, to "the final missing piece", all claiming too pull some new hidden secret out of Hogans swing.

I guess people are always looking for an easy way out....it doesnt exist.

Just by looking at the S&T; swing, it does appear that it would take some strain off your back. Also, it seems like it would be easier to teach & consiquently to learn. The pivot out of the 5 lessons can be confusing, and I do believe that most players dont have the time to develop it properly.

Its off the the library...

-Beane

***iacas*** · November 1, 2009

I'm going to respond in the hopes of closing the off-topic discussions. Right now it's a better option than deleting every post in the thread and re-clarifying the goal of this thread, which is re-stated at the bottom of this post.

If you insist on the trolling or want to simply bash the method, start a new thread or follow up with me in a PM. If you have any legitimate issues beyond blanket statements, rumors, and mistruths, I'll be happy to discuss them.

I don't remember any of the greats of old putting their weight on the left side at address and stay there throughout the swing. But I might be wrong.

You are wrong... to the extent that Stack and Tilt only

feels like your weight stays left. It goes to the right (it has to - your hands and arms and the club go that way). They've done force plate testing and confirmed that even with a perfectly done Stack and Tilt swing your weight goes right. However, AP and MB feel as though too many people SLIDE their weight right, so the "weight forward" for the takeaway is more of a "feeling" than reality. Ben Hogan's Five Lessons show the same sort of backswing: straightening right leg, center of hips BEHIND center of shoulders. It's page 73 and 74 in my soft cover book.

stack and tilt is not the easiest or most consistent method to swing a club and produce results... it a method of adjustments...Apparently, if two wrongs don't make a right, 10 wrongs does. ROTFL.

Every golf swing is a method of adjustments.

I don't care what you do as long as you can do it every time.

Yes, we know. You're our forum's little Rain Man, free of swing thoughts and high on "just hit the ball." Why post here? It should be obvious to you that a great many other people are more analytical with their swings than you, and that's not a bad thing.

Many look at my swing and think it is full of flaws, but I have learned how to hit is straight with what I have... so who am I to judge what works or does not work.

I don't know, but "it's not the easiest or most consistent method" with "10 wrongs" and a series of "adjustments" sure as hell sounds like judging to me.

Sergio is below average in FIR using very a similar swing to the S&T; (1:15) and he is hitting a wood from the middle of his stance (2:30), he's prob plying a low draw.

Why does it matter what club he's hitting? Sergio doesn't change the position of his entire body (beyond normal) at the top of his swing for different shots.

I can definitely see the similarities, but Iacas... Wouldn't you agree: It is somewhat difficult to get off the tee with a S&T; setup?

No, wouldn't agree at all. I would agree that most people who might "try it for themselves" and think they're doing it right probably have trouble off the tee, but they're not doing things properly.

I say this because two years ago or so when I was goofing around with what I thought was an S&T; swing that I hit it crappy with the driver on the range. But this year, with an instructor, much better driving: distance and accuracy. And a lot of the S&T; players are ranked quite high in Total Driving on the PGA Tour as well. ------ Look, this thread isn't intended to bash or promote the pattern. If you don't like the pattern or have no interest in learning about it, kindly go elsewhere. Posting "it sucks" or "it's a fad" or "that's a great swing if you want to kill your back" is trolling and misses the point of this thread, the topic, the discussion. Again, this thread is for the discussion of the pattern: parts you find difficult, information about the pieces, the ball flight, the terms they use (most of which are TGM), etc. It's a place where people can get help with the pattern if they've adopted it or get information from others who have adopted it for those who are interested.

**WUTiger** · November 2, 2009

Took a look at the Hogan vs. S&T; pictures/overlaid, and the SandTrapRoadShow video. I think - quite by accident - I'm a blend of the two.

I started rebuilding my swing last year, and combined new clubs with new swing this year. As you can tell, I'm not yet ready for the U.S. Amateur.

Anyway, for years I had tried a Nicklaus-like swing, with a high reach and real jump down on the ball. Trouble was, I had balance problems and tended to loop the club at the top and get several crazy shots a round.

My new swing has the Hogan basics and is basically a 3/4 swing.

My balance at top is closer to Hogan than to S&T; guy, who has more forward lean ... BUT, my hands never go past the ear, similar to the S&T; guy. Also, I get maybe an 85-degree turn rather than Hogan's 100-degree+ turn.

I still need more grooving, and more conscious hand drop to start the downswing. Most days the new swing is there for at least a few holes, but fades in and out. But when it's there, I hit some solid shots.

***iacas*** · November 2, 2009

Took a look at the Hogan vs. S&T; pictures/overlaid, and the SandTrapRoadShow video. I think - quite by accident - I'm a blend of the two.

Heh. Every time I see that video I misread it as "sandtrap" too. I think it's "s and t road show" or something, as in "S&T.;"

My balance at top is closer to Hogan than to S&T; guy, who has more

Who does? A stack and tilt swing doesn't lean towards the target at the top. Aaron may have in those pictures but those pictures were meant to illustrate how the swing should "feel," not how the swing actually works. That's one of the things Andy and Mike didn't like about the article - it didn't stress that "feeling" versus "reality" difference enough.

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