Par 3 over water roll back?

If you hit to a Par 3 green over water, ball goes over the water and lands in play, but then rolls back down into the water, where do you put the ball?  I said a club length from the water's edge/OB line (where it went in) with one shot penalty.  My buddy said that would make it closer to the hole and you can't do that.  What's the right call?

Not sure what you mean by OB line......

Was it a water hazard or a lateral water hazard? i.e. Yellow or red stakes?

Ok, I see what you mean.  Not OB, I guess.  Definite water hazard straight ahead though.  The ball actually crosses the yellow line twice.  Once at the front of and once at the back and not playable.

If a ball is in a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in a water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke :

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5 ), or
b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped ; or
c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

The bold underlined bits apply to your situation. The 2 clublength drop only applies to when you go into a lateral water hazard (red stakes). And this is, as always, not nearer the hole.

Hope this helps (And I hope I explained it decently, I've been told that i'm bad at explaining things )

deasy55 is correct. Here's how I try and explain and remember it:

Yellow stakes means you must cross the hazard again on your next shot. Red stakes means you can take a lateral drop no nearer the hole. White stakes are OB and must replay shot.

You shouldn't have to go back accross the hazard once it hits over it, at least I wouldn't think so. What would happen if you were on the back of the green, chipped it accross the green into the water? Would you then have to go back accross and recross it?

It's the rules. I posted it above. And yes to your last question. Or else hit the chip again, of course.

Most water hazards are red staked. When it is yellow, they want yellow rules.

Yes you do if it is a regular water hazard.  It's only for a red marked lateral water hazard that you get the 2 club length option.  Option 'c' in rule 26 quoted above is rarely even possible for a water hazard marked in yellow because, as in the case of the OP's scenario, you would almost always be dropping closer to the hole than where the ball last crossed into the hazard.  If such a drop is possible then the hazard is improperly marked.

Picture the situation:  Your ball crosses over and then rolls back into the hazard.  Your point of reference is the point where the ball last crossed into the hazard as it rolled back in.  Draw a line from the hole through that point, and the only possible place to drop is back on the far side of the hazard.  It's impossible to find a point on that line on the hole side of the hazard which is not closer to the hole - that's simple geometry.  The rules never allow you to drop closer to the hole than whatever reference point you are using to establish your relief option, whether it be water hazard, obstruction, or abnormal ground.

Many players tend to moan about this kind of situation saying it is not fair as the ball already crossed the water hazard. However, the course designer wanted the players to properly play over the water hazard and in the situation described by OP this requirement has not been fulfilled.

A water hazard is something you must hit your ball over and a lateral water hazard is something a bit out of the way, i.e. you do not have to cross it. Many times you see red stakes all around an island green and that is not proper. The front edge of an island green should always be marked with yellow stakes/lines. The sides and back edge may be red or yellow, depending on various things. The point is not to give an unfair advantage to a player who fails to cross the water hazard properly.

I agree that it is simple geometry, but I don't agree that it's not possible, nor that the hazard is improperly marked. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/image/id/162551/width/1000/height/800][IMG]http://thesandtrap.com/image/id/162551/width/1000/height/500[/IMG][/URL] On this picture, you can see two similar situations. One where you can drop it within two club lenghts, one where you can not. http://assets.thesandtrap.com.s3.amazonaws.com/d/d8/d80c6c11_vbattach1875.png

I thnk fourputt is talking about water hazard, not a lateral water hazard. In the latter case it is only normal to find a place to drop not closer to the hole. What is not normal is to have red stakes around any water hazard area that players need to cross.

I never said it was impossible for a hazard marked in red as a lateral water hazard.  In fact for any water hazard marked as a lateral it should almost always be possible.  It should not be possible for a hazard marked in yellow (and certainly isn't possible under Rule 26-1).  The irregularity of the margin of many water hazards means that neither case is true 100% of the time.  However, if the hazard is marked in yellow then it is the intent of the designer that the only option is on the side of the hazard which is farthest away from the hole, thus you are only given option 'a' and 'b' for relief.

If you have to deal with a water hazard which you feel is incorrectly marked, take it up with the course staff.  They will either ignore you, explain why it is so marked, or just possibly, if your argument is valid, they might remark that portion of the hazard.

Good info and thanks everyone.   I was obviously wrong in what I thought, which isn't the first time and I'm sure won't be the last.

Yeah, I think that a lot of us tend to view the purpose of a water hazard incorrectly. The point is to successfully hit across a "dead zone". In general, I think the concepts are: - Bunkers are "hard to get out of - enter at your own risk" - Yellow hazards are "dead zone - you must pass this successfully without touching" - Red hazards are "try to avoid - penalty for touching" [quote name="Fourputt" url="/forum/thread/51999/par-3-over-water-roll-back#post_634050"]Option 'c' in rule 26 quoted above is rarely even possible for a water hazard marked in yellow because, as in the case of the OP's scenario, you would almost always be dropping closer to the hole than where the ball last crossed into the hazard.  If such a drop is possible then the hazard is improperly marked.

Picture the situation:  Your ball crosses over and then rolls back into the hazard.  Your point of reference is the point where the ball last crossed into the hazard as it rolled back in.  Draw a line from the hole through that point, and the only possible place to drop is back on the far side of the hazard.[/quote] Option "c" has nothing to do with drawing a line between the flag and the point where the ball last crossed the hazard. All you need is a point within two club-lengths that's not nearer the hole, which you're pretty much guaranteed to have so long as the hazard edge isn't oddly shaped. It's available in most circumstances. [quote name="Zeph" url="/forum/thread/51999/par-3-over-water-roll-back#post_634093"] I agree that it is simple geometry, but I don't agree that it's not possible, nor that the hazard is improperly marked. On this picture, you can see two similar situations. One where you can drop it within two club lenghts, one where you can not. http://assets.thesandtrap.com.s3.amazonaws.com/d/d8/d80c6c11_vbattach1875.png[/quote] You are correct, but fourputt was talking about dropping on that same line. He said he was considering option "c" for a normal hazard, but then said the drop would have to be on the flag-to-crossing line. If you take option "c" as it is, where you can drop within two club lengths not nearer the hole and regardless of the line between the ball's last point and the pin, then your geometry is correct: You're pretty much guaranteed to find such a point. If only we were allowed to take it. :-P

No I was not.  I was saying that for a regular water hazard it is usually not even a possibility if it was allowed.  If the hazard is marked correctly, then the side nearer the hole is usually a concave arc, or at times a straight line.  As such, any point outside of the hole side of the hazard within 2 clublengths of the point where the ball last crossed in is going to be closer to the hole.  The only possible options are 'a' and 'b'.  Only in rare and unusual circumstances would the hazard line allow a point where you could drop under option 'c' if it was even allowed.  Option 'c' for lateral water hazards exists because there is usually no place where you can drop under option 'b'.  If option 'c' was not available you would almost always be limited to stroke and distance for a lateral water hazard.

I inferred from your phrasing that you were. Apologies! [quote name="Fourputt" url="/forum/thread/51999/par-3-over-water-roll-back#post_634317"]If the hazard is marked correctly, then the side nearer the hole is usually a concave arc, or at times a straight line.  As such, any point outside of the hole side of the hazard within 2 clublengths of the point where the ball last crossed in is going to be closer to the hole.  The only possible options are 'a' and 'b'.  Only in rare and unusual circumstances would the hazard line allow a point where you could drop under option 'c' if it was even allowed.[/quote] Assuming a straight edge to the margin, geometrically, you are going to be farther from the pin if you move straight to either side -- unless you have a strong arc or v-shape at work. When you move forward from the hazard to drop, you will move closer to the pin in the X coordinates by a small amount, yes, but will have used your clublengths to move farther from the pin in the Y coordinates. The straight line connecting to the pin will be ever so slightly longer. See Zeph's diagram, where you approach the green from the bottom of the picture, assuming the bottom part of the hazard is yellow-staked. Note the radius around the flag. I just did a bit of geometry, assuming the worst conditions, to see what the drop zone size might actually be. Having the flag directly in front of you (with your back to the hazard, standing at the point of the ball's crossing) is the worst case for that drop zone (since having the flag to your side allows you to go the opposite direction and get farther away from it). Also, the farther away the flag is, the "flatter" its circumference is from your perspective, so a far away flag is worst case. So assuming a short driver length (about 43") and a pin a full 30 yards away directly in front of you (that's the absolute worst case that could occur on any of my local courses) you could drop two club lengths away and have 3.75 inches of buffer outside the hazard to drop in. Now that's not a lot of buffer (admittedly, less than I expected), but it's a couple ball widths and certainly sufficient for placing a ball in. Now, given the practical unevenness of the hazard, that spot may or may not exist, but it has a reasonable chance on at least one of the sides on most straight margins. By the time you're only 15 yards from the pin, you have a full 15 inches of buffer from the margin line. Unless it's noticeably arced (eg, a 1:5 ratio), you're pretty much guaranteed to have a drop spot. And as you shift to the side of the flagstick, the buffer zone increases dramatically. Those numbers above assume you're standing directly in front of the flagstick and are the absolute worst case -- you can get up to a couple yards of buffer if you're significantly off line to the pin. So even in the real world, you'd have a drop spot at least 90% of the time -- [i]if[/i] the rules allowed it. It would usually be small (well, the more on line your shot was the smaller it would be), but Zeph is right that it would exist. Edit: Typos

What is and is not "supposed" to be possible is beside the point.

If yellow you drop from other side. Period. This used to cause much arguing for an extended group of buddies that played Twin Oaks outside San Diego every year. On one hole, there is water in front of the steep bank up to the green. The water is marked with yellow stakes in front of the green that turn to red stakes as you go farther right and left of the green. So, if you hit over the water and your ball rolls back into the water, you had to re-cross the hazard if it rolled into the yellow stake area and you had the option of dropping on the green-side if it entered the hazard in the red staked area. Two guys hitting approach shots could both cross the water and roll back in and have very different next shots because of a few feet difference. The guy with the shot more off-line often gets the better drop. We went over this rule every year and some guys never got it right.