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Ball over Green

post #1 of 34
Thread Starter 

We ran into this yesterday and I was not sure how to play it and I think my playing partners got ripped lol

It was a 90 yard par 3 surrounded by water. They both hit their t-shots over the green into the water hazard.

I thought that as this would be common on this hole there would be a drop area by the green Nope :(

Now when we got to the green you could see both balls in the mud. What could they have done? it was woods behind so they could not go back. Could they have dropped in front of the green on the other side of the hazard ? 

post #2 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hojoy View Post

We ran into this yesterday and I was not sure how to play it and I think my playing partners got ripped lol

It was a 90 yard par 3 surrounded by water. They both hit their t-shots over the green into the water hazard.

I thought that as this would be common on this hole there would be a drop area by the green Nope :(

Now when we got to the green you could see both balls in the mud. What could they have done? it was woods behind so they could not go back. Could they have dropped in front of the green on the other side of the hazard ? 

 

It'll be important to know how the hazard was marked. Did it have yellow stakes or lines, or red stakes or lines, or a combination of red and yellow? Or were there no markings? Was there any local rules information on the back of the scorecard or posted on a club bulletin board?

post #3 of 34

No. If they cannot physically find a drop on the far side they must go back to the tee and play their third from there.

 

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped;

post #4 of 34
Thread Starter 
It was staked yellow. Ok so only option was to re tee. Then we played it right lol feel sorry for them as they dropped a couple more in the water over the free lol thanks for the quick response guys
post #5 of 34

if it is yellow then they play in the hazard, or drop on the opposite side or shoot again.

 

altough the hazard in this position should not be yellow.

post #6 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubble View Post

altough the hazard in this position should not be yellow.

 

Yes it should be. It's not lateral to anything.

post #7 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Yes it should be. It's not lateral to anything.

 

But in many cases (all I have seen I guess), they are red. This would most of times allow dropping green side and make things a bit faster. Right or wrong, you get your penalties anyway.

post #8 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by luu5 View Post

 

But in many cases (all I have seen I guess), they are red. This would most of times allow dropping green side and make things a bit faster. Right or wrong, you get your penalties anyway.

 

It should only be done if it is impossible or impracticable to get to the far side.

It only works if you can find a place within 2 cl of the point it last crossed the margin and not nearer the hole. That is often impossible if the water curves round the back of the green.

 

Note that Sawgrass if yellow lined. 

post #9 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post

 

It should only be done if it is impossible or impracticable to get to the far side.

It only works if you can find a place within 2 cl of the point it last crossed the margin and not nearer the hole. That is often impossible if the water curves round the back of the green.

 

In most cases I have encountered it has been stream with woods around/behind, so not real drop area on the other side.

 

Dropping can be impossible but not in most cases.

post #10 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by luu5 View Post

In most cases I have encountered it has been stream with woods around/behind, so not real drop area on the other side.

 

Dropping can be impossible but not in most cases.

 

So what? That's a yellow hazard. You re-tee or, if it's available, play from a drop area.

 

Laterals are over-used.

post #11 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


Laterals are over-used.

QFT!

I see courses marking simple tree lines red! I understand why they do it, but it's silliness nonetheless.....
post #12 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


Laterals are over-used.

QFT!

I see courses marking simple tree lines red! I understand why they do it, but it's silliness nonetheless.....

 

This is the truth.  Too many courses are taking the easy way out by calling anything they want to a lateral hazard instead of marking the course according to the rules and promoting and encouraging the use of the provisional ball.  Under the rules, a lateral hazard should be marked as such only when Rule 26-1b is impracticable.  To even be designated as a hazard it must contain water or be a watercourse of some sort.  A forested border to a hole is not a water hazard in and of itself. z7_no.gif

 

In some cases, it may be unnecessarily penal to send the player back to the previous spot for a ball over the back of the green.  In such cases the sides and back of the island may all be marked as lateral water hazards, or a dropping zone should be created to offer a reasonable chance for the player to hit the green after taking the penalty relief.  

post #13 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


Laterals are over-used.

QFT!

I see courses marking simple tree lines red! I understand why they do it, but it's silliness nonetheless.....

 

So why do they do it? I always thought it was to save time. (No need to hit a provisional if you have the opportunity to drop, and more likely to give up the search early.)  

 

It may not be in accordance with the definition of a lateral hazard, but it's not silliness to improve pace of play, is it? 

post #14 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post

 

So why do they do it? I always thought it was to save time. (No need to hit a provisional if you have the opportunity to drop, and more likely to give up the search early.)  

 

It may not be in accordance with the definition of a lateral hazard, but it's not silliness to improve pace of play, is it? 

 

It is silliness to argue that an area that has no element of a water hazard is a lateral hazard.

 

While I agree that lateral marking is overused in many situations, in the over the green situation initially described it would not be outside the USGA course set-up guidelines to mark a lateral in that instance.

 

The course set-up guideleines DO allow for a water hazard to be marked as a lateral when to do otherwise would be 

 

 

Quote:
In order for a water hazard to qualify as a lateral water hazard, the body of water must be so situated that it is not possible or is deemed by the Committee to be impracticable for a player to drop a ball behind the hazard and keep the point at which the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped.
 
A body of water which can be properly classified as a lateral water hazard includes a brook parallel to a hole if the terrain on the far side is rocky or wooded. In such a case, a player could not keep the brook between himself and the hole without dropping in extremely difficult terrain. Thus, if the brook were not defined as a lateral water hazard, the player would likely be faced with a stroke-and-distance penalty, which is too severe.
 

 

In the over the green situation it was impracticable to drop behind the hazard.

post #15 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post

So why do they do it? I always thought it was to save time. (No need to hit a provisional if you have the opportunity to drop, and more likely to give up the search early.)  

It may not be in accordance with the definition of a lateral hazard, but it's not silliness to improve pace of play, is it? 

I'm all for quick play, but you don't improve pace of play by bastardizing the game itself. A water hazard is a water hazard......woods are not. What's next, red stakes alongside the fairway in case your ball is lost in the deep rough?

Again, silliness.
post #16 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post


I'm all for quick play, but you don't improve pace of play by bastardizing the game itself. A water hazard is a water hazard......woods are not. What's next, red stakes alongside the fairway in case your ball is lost in the deep rough?

Again, silliness.

"Natural grass areas are considered lateral hazards." is a local rule printed on the score card at a course I play regularly.  Another course that I play regularly does not have this rule and hosted a Golf Channel Amateur Tour event recently.  I was told by the cart guys that the round took 6.5 hours because guys were not hitting provisional balls when they should- it looks like only 2 guys broke 80 (a 78 winning the Championship flight with a penalty for slow play and a 73 winning the Palmer flight.

 http://thegolfchannel.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/thegolfchannel13/event/thegolfchannel13628/recap.htm?r=5ee62666-d957-4949-80b3-0da6930430ee  and  http://thegolfchannel.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/thegolfchannel13/event/thegolfchannel13628/contest/1/leaderboard.htm

post #17 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

So what? That's a yellow hazard. You re-tee or, if it's available, play from a drop area.

 

Laterals are over-used.

 

Of course I would play as water hazard if so marked. But as turtleback wrote, USGA does not restrict lateral hazards to be only lateral.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

 

It is silliness to argue that an area that has no element of a water hazard is a lateral hazard.

 

While I agree that lateral marking is overused in many situations, in the over the green situation initially described it would not be outside the USGA course set-up guidelines to mark a lateral in that instance.

 

The course set-up guideleines DO allow for a water hazard to be marked as a lateral when to do otherwise would be 

 

In the over the green situation it was impracticable to drop behind the hazard.

 

FTW!

post #18 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by luu5 View Post

Of course I would play as water hazard if so marked. But as turtleback wrote, USGA does not restrict lateral hazards to be only lateral.

 

They recommend that they be used that way, however. That green sounds like the 17th at Sawgrass, which is not marked as a lateral.

 

The USGA would lean towards or prefer marking it yellow, not red.

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