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how to draw with lots of lag

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 

hello,

 

After about a year and to many trips to the range I finally found a consistent swing with a straight ball flight.  Everything I read I tried and it didn't work.  It didn't work because I found out that my hands are way to forward at impact.  By way to forward I mean outside of my lead leg.  Being that far forward caused me to open the club face a bit at impact and thus I had kind of a very late low fade or my ball went miles into the air.  So to hit the ball straight I have to close the face and take a very strong grip.  I can see 4 knuckles on my lead hand at address.  I don't want to change that because I am hitting the ball longer and more accurate.  But with out changing my swing I want to add a draw for those pins tucked into areas where a draw is the ideal shot.  For fades I just use a more neutral grip.  For a draw it seems that everywhere I read it says aim right of the target and close club face so that the face is aiming where i want the ball to end up.  But closing the face more than I already do is awkward and uncomfortable and my grip couldn't get stronger.  Can anyone give me a tip or something I can work on that might help me achieve a consistent draw?  By the way I'm right handed.

 

Thanks,

post #2 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by azgolfer22 View Post
 

hello,

 

After about a year and to many trips to the range I finally found a consistent swing with a straight ball flight.  Everything I read I tried and it didn't work.  It didn't work because I found out that my hands are way to forward at impact.  By way to forward I mean outside of my lead leg. 

 

Welcome to the site but I do find it hard to believe that your hands are outside your left knee at impact.

 

Sergio is know for his "lag" but even he doesn't have the hands outside the left until after impact.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by azgolfer22 View Post
 

For a draw it seems that everywhere I read it says aim right of the target and close club face so that the face is aiming where i want the ball to end up.  But closing the face more than I already do is awkward and uncomfortable and my grip couldn't get stronger.  Can anyone give me a tip or something I can work on that might help me achieve a consistent draw?  By the way I'm right handed.

 

Thanks,

 

 

That info on how to hit a draw is incorrect, check out this article, ball starts where the face is pointed at impact and curves away from the path.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

 

For your swing I would start with the grip, four knuckles at address is too much imo  You can also post a video in the Member Swing forum.

post #3 of 33
Thread Starter 

thanks for replying.  i get a lot of people that say the same thing.  i don't need to adjust my natural swing i just want to add a draw.  i'm happy with pars on tough left hole positions.  just trying to pick up a stroke or 2 per round by getting closer on those holes by using a draw.  so you can get a feeling for how i came to the conclusion that my arms are to far forward try this.  stand at address and press the club towards your target until your hands are at least even with the middle of your leading thigh, but don't manipulate the club face.  you will see that the club face is open and your trail wrist is very bent.  idealy you should be trying to straighten your trailing wrist right before impact and naturally with hands that far forward the face is going to open with a weak, neutral, or normal strong grip.  as you can see Sergio's trail wrist is almost straight. he realeases his lag on time or early because he can control that.  I can't control it but i can fix what i think is a good problem to have by taking the grip i have.  also isn't it correct that the pros can manipulate the amount of lag/deloft they are using.  this is a picture of 1 swing and it looks like it is a short iron and the ball is forward in his stance so his body weight is shifting further forward.  if it was a long iron then using this same swing or lag would probably cause an amateur to hit the ball fat.  the shaft lean is not the same for every club.  i don't control my arms. lag, or deloft at all.  i swing hard using 100% of my hips.  after sliding my hips only 2 inches i'm already half way down my downswing and then my hips and lats take over and i have a very smooth powerful swing in balanced.  i put tremendous trust in my eyes and brain that they will control my arms and wrist without my intervention.  it works so well that i rarely miss a green in regulation.  As for a video of me the camera on my phone doesn't have enough frames per second to clearly see my downswing or release. 

post #4 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by azgolfer22 View Post
 

thanks for replying.  i get a lot of people that say the same thing.  i don't need to adjust my natural swing i just want to add a draw.  i'm happy with pars on tough left hole positions.  just trying to pick up a stroke or 2 per round by getting closer on those holes by using a draw.  so you can get a feeling for how i came to the conclusion that my arms are to far forward try this.  stand at address and press the club towards your target until your hands are at least even with the middle of your leading thigh, but don't manipulate the club face.  you will see that the club face is open and your trail wrist is very bent.  idealy you should be trying to straighten your trailing wrist right before impact and naturally with hands that far forward the face is going to open with a weak, neutral, or normal strong grip.  as you can see Sergio's trail wrist is almost straight. he realeases his lag on time or early because he can control that.  I can't control it but i can fix what i think is a good problem to have by taking the grip i have.  also isn't it correct that the pros can manipulate the amount of lag/deloft they are using.  this is a picture of 1 swing and it looks like it is a short iron and the ball is forward in his stance so his body weight is shifting further forward.  if it was a long iron then using this same swing or lag would probably cause an amateur to hit the ball fat.  the shaft lean is not the same for every club.  i don't control my arms. lag, or deloft at all.  i swing hard using 100% of my hips.  after sliding my hips only 2 inches i'm already half way down my downswing and then my hips and lats take over and i have a very smooth powerful swing in balanced.  i put tremendous trust in my eyes and brain that they will control my arms and wrist without my intervention.  it works so well that i rarely miss a green in regulation.  As for a video of me the camera on my phone doesn't have enough frames per second to clearly see my downswing or release. 

 

If you rarely miss a green in regulation, then what's the problem? 

 

At impact the lead wrist is flat and the trail wrist is bent.  The trail wrist shouldn't be straight/flat at impact.

 

If you feel your hands are too far forward take a look at this thread below.  As you transfer forward feeling the distance from the shaft to your right shoulder get wider and don't pull the elbows apart.  Again I would also recommend a grip where you see about 2 1/2 knuckles, not 4, can cause some issues with how you "sense" the sweetspot on the back swing and downswing.

 

 How to Effectively Create Lag on the Downswing 

post #5 of 33
Thread Starter 

i'm completely happy with my grip and swing.  i was just wondering that in order to draw the ball the club face must be closed to the path.  with my crazy grip and hand position at impact is making it impossible to get a consistent draw.  since i'm right handed do you think it would work if i roll my right wrist as i'm swing in to out? and maybe practice by hitting a tee a few inches in front of the ball on the target side and about an inch or so on the outside?

post #6 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by azgolfer22 View Post

i'm completely happy with my grip and swing.  i was just wondering that in order to draw the ball the club face must be closed to the path.  with my crazy grip and hand position at impact is making it impossible to get a consistent draw.  since i'm right handed do you think it would work if i roll my right wrist as i'm swing in to out? and maybe practice by hitting a tee a few inches in front of the ball on the target side and about an inch or so on the outside?
I
Mvmac, a pro, is giving you advice as to why you might want to consider changing your grip. You should think about it.

Rolling your hands through impact is not a consistent and oftentimes ineffective way of closing the face to the path. It is usually easier to change your path and then work on your starting line afterwards. Did you read the thread on ball flight laws?
post #7 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by azgolfer22 View Post
 

i'm completely happy with my grip and swing.  i was just wondering that in order to draw the ball the club face must be closed to the path.  with my crazy grip and hand position at impact is making it impossible to get a consistent draw.  since i'm right handed do you think it would work if i roll my right wrist as i'm swing in to out? and maybe practice by hitting a tee a few inches in front of the ball on the target side and about an inch or so on the outside?

 

Yes to draw the ball the face needs to be closed to the path and start right of your target.  The face angle is primarily responsible for the starting direction.  A stronger grip often results in a clubface that's more rightward pointing and a more OUTward (in to out) swing direction.

 

You say you want a consistent draw, what are the balls currently doing when you try to draw it?  How far to the right of the target are these balls starting?  Are they just staying straight?

post #8 of 33

I'd search "hitting up with the driver" and find iacas's thread on the subject. It's very informative and the driver is a club you need to be hitting correctly to use; it doesn't hide mistakes. If you can hit a draw with every other club in the bag, the driver can still be very difficult unless you're perfect at impact. Plus it's easy to lose speed and control if you're off plane; I'd go to an instructor (such as iacas) and use every professional resource to learn the proper alignments for such a shot because doing it on your own takes a long time and your progress isn't always forward. His thread does note that the method he teaches for a fade can be changed into a pull draw with a positive angle of attack which is how I hit a draw with that club on the rare occasion I need it.

 

Personally, I rarely hit a draw with my driver or 3 wood. The high fade is my shot of choice off the tee, using a positive angle of attack but very little static loft. Hitting a draw with such a small amount of loft is very tough for me, and I definitely lose 40 or so feet of height. I'd need a shorter driver with more loft and a different setup to hit it like my other clubs, and I'd be giving up distance to do so unless I can create more speed. I use 7.5 degrees of loft on my driver right now, so I'd likely be hitting as much as 11 if I wanted a draw, and it would spin a lot more. I'd rather be hitting a 270 forced carry than a draw, though I rarely have the choice. Usually if I must hit a draw and a straight shot is so narrow as to be out of the question (ie, it's a terrible hole), I draw my hybrid or 3i with a low tee to place the shot. I give up 50 or so yards in doing so, and it usually means hitting a par 5 in 2 is impossible, but the draw with my driver will either end up perfect or awful. There's no margin for error so OB or woods is likely. On holes that dogleg to the right, on the other hand, I can get away with a slight miss. 

 

Were I to set my driver up for a draw, I'd have to change my stance from open to closed and it's a pretty shaky look from my point of view. Not only is the ball farther forward in my stance, I can't see my target and I have to swing somewhat away from it along my foot line. I know when the shot goes off that it might carry 20-30 yards less than my fade, and I'm not that comfortable hitting fairways with it. Hitting a shot left of where my stance is aligned is not a comfortable feeling. I do often hit a draw with my other clubs from my wedges to my hybrid, since I'm hitting either a push draw or a straight fade 99 percent of the time. But shots off the ground are different than tee shots since you hopefully bottom out after the ball, so it changes the shots you can hit. The draw with a driver can turn into either a top or low hook and neither is playable.

 

Overall, you should tell whoever is holding a gun to your head making you try to draw your driver to get lost. It's a lot easier to pick a different option and very few strokes will be gained if you learn to do it.

 

Also, "lag" isn't something to base a swing off of. It's among the most misused terms in golf; don't base anything relating to the "release" or "firing the hips" off written advice or a swing video. They are buzzwords that are defined very differently by different people. There are some important concepts out there but they need to be understood rather than named.

post #9 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciusWooding View Post

I'd search "hitting up with the driver" and find iacas's thread on the subject. It's very informative and the driver is a club you need to be hitting correctly to use; it doesn't hide mistakes. If you can hit a draw with every other club in the bag, the driver can still be very difficult unless you're perfect at impact. Plus it's easy to lose speed and control if you're off plane; I'd go to an instructor (such as iacas) and use every professional resource to learn the proper alignments for such a shot because doing it on your own takes a long time and your progress isn't always forward. His thread does note that the method he teaches for a fade can be changed into a pull draw with a positive angle of attack which is how I hit a draw with that club on the rare occasion I need it.

Personally, I rarely hit a draw with my driver or 3 wood. The high fade is my shot of choice off the tee, using a positive angle of attack but very little static loft. Hitting a draw with such a small amount of loft is very tough for me, and I definitely lose 40 or so feet of height. I'd need a shorter driver with more loft and a different setup to hit it like my other clubs, and I'd be giving up distance to do so unless I can create more speed. I use 7.5 degrees of loft on my driver right now, so I'd likely be hitting as much as 11 if I wanted a draw, and it would spin a lot more. I'd rather be hitting a 270 forced carry than a draw, though I rarely have the choice. Usually if I must hit a draw and a straight shot is so narrow as to be out of the question (ie, it's a terrible hole), I draw my hybrid or 3i with a low tee to place the shot. I give up 50 or so yards in doing so, and it usually means hitting a par 5 in 2 is impossible, but the draw with my driver will either end up perfect or awful. There's no margin for error so OB or woods is likely. On holes that dogleg to the right, on the other hand, I can get away with a slight miss. 

Were I to set my driver up for a draw, I'd have to change my stance from open to closed and it's a pretty shaky look from my point of view. Not only is the ball farther forward in my stance, I can't see my target and I have to swing somewhat away from it along my foot line. I know when the shot goes off that it might carry 20-30 yards less than my fade, and I'm not that comfortable hitting fairways with it. Hitting a shot left of where my stance is aligned is not a comfortable feeling. I do often hit a draw with my other clubs from my wedges to my hybrid, since I'm hitting either a push draw or a straight fade 99 percent of the time. But shots off the ground are different than tee shots since you hopefully bottom out after the ball, so it changes the shots you can hit. The draw with a driver can turn into either a top or low hook and neither is playable.

Overall, you should tell whoever is holding a gun to your head making you try to draw your driver to get lost. It's a lot easier to pick a different option and very few strokes will be gained if you learn to do it.

Also, "lag" isn't something to base a swing off of. It's among the most misused terms in golf; don't base anything relating to the "release" or "firing the hips" off written advice or a swing video. They are buzzwords that are defined very differently by different people. There are some important concepts out there but they need to be understood rather than named.

Really glad you wrote this. Every time I try to draw my driver I hit a pull or hook. I'm just learning to hit straight at this point, anyway.
post #10 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post


Really glad you wrote this. Every time I try to draw my driver I hit a pull or hook. I'm just learning to hit straight at this point, anyway.

 

To draw it, same swing, just aim the body further left (Lihu is a lefty).

post #11 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
 

 

Yes to draw the ball the face needs to be closed to the path and start right of your target.  The face angle is primarily responsible for the starting direction.  A stronger grip often results in a clubface that's more rightward pointing and a more OUTward (in to out) swing direction.

 

You say you want a consistent draw, what are the balls currently doing when you try to draw it?  How far to the right of the target are these balls starting?  Are they just staying straight?

when trying to hit a draw the balls are just flying straight right of the target. like a push.  i dont know how far right they start but at the range it looks like they are landing about 20 yards right.  hard to estimate from 150 away and at night. 

post #12 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post


Really glad you wrote this. Every time I try to draw my driver I hit a pull or hook. I'm just learning to hit straight at this point, anyway.

 

To draw it, same swing, just aim the body further left (Lihu is a lefty).


But keep the feet where they are?

post #13 of 33
Azgolfer22, you might want to video your swing. if you have as much lag at impact that you describe then you would have to crouch down quite a bit to hit the ball, also it would Rob you of power. I say this bc I thought I had plenty of lag until I just video my swing and found that what I FEEL like I have and what I actually have are 2 different things. If one of your misses is a sky ball then it would make sense that you can't hit a high ball with that much lag you described.
post #14 of 33
I'm on the range right now.
Got the draw twice.

Gave up after 10 more hooks.

I'm pretty sure I need keys 4 and 5 to be able to control the clubface.

Maybe next month. . .
post #15 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by azgolfer22 View Post
 

when trying to hit a draw the balls are just flying straight right of the target. like a push.  i dont know how far right they start but at the range it looks like they are landing about 20 yards right.  hard to estimate from 150 away and at night. 

 

If it's that big of a straight push then something is causing you to have the face pointed too far to the right.  Again I would say to weaken the grip but that's not something you want to do.  It doesn't make sense to then try to get the swing direction further to the right of a face that is already aimed too far right.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 


But keep the feet where they are?

 

Sure feet as well, just makes it easier to align the shoulders/hips OUTward as well.

post #16 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post

If it's that big of a straight push then something is causing you to have the face pointed too far to the right.  Again I would say to weaken the grip but that's not something you want to do.  It doesn't make sense to then try to get the swing direction further to the right of a face that is already aimed too far right.
Sounds like a block, maybe? If that's the case, I'd bet his right elbow is behind him at impact.
post #17 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by billchao View Post


Sounds like a block, maybe? If that's the case, I'd bet his right elbow is behind him at impact.

 

Could be one of several reasons. Better for me to see a video than to speculate.

post #18 of 33

Should the draw gain some distance?

 

I noticed a loss of carry distance because the draw drives were a bit lower than my normal drive. I suppose on the course is the only way to tell, because I usually don't look at roll on the driving range.

 

In any case, other than a left dogleg (I'm a leftie), for what application would this drive benefit?

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