Rules questions - moving ball and multiple penalties?

When you took your stance and grounded the club, you need to decide whether the ball moved or not.  If you are satisfied that the ball moved, then yes, you incur a one stroke penalty for moving the ball and an additional stroke for not replacing the ball.

If as part of your 2nd address you moved the ball a 2nd time, same process.  It was not clear, however, whether the 2nd movement occurred solely after you initiated your swing.

Once you begin your swing, if the ball moves, you are allowed to hit the ball, even if it still moving, as long as you continue the stroke.  There is no penalty for hitting a moving ball or a ball that moved after the swing started.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkuehn1952

When you took your stance and grounded the club, you need to decide whether the ball moved or not.  If you are satisfied that the ball moved, then yes, you incur a one stroke penalty for moving the ball and an additional stroke for not replacing the ball.

If as part of your 2nd address you moved the ball a 2nd time, same process.  It was not clear, however, whether the 2nd movement occurred solely after you initiated your swing.

Once you begin your swing, if the ball moves, you are allowed to hit the ball, even if it still moving, as long as you continue the stroke.  There is no penalty for hitting a moving ball or a ball that moved after the swing started.

Actually for the second movement, there is is still a one stroke penalty under rule 18-2b for causing the ball in play to move.  There is no penalty for striking a moving ball.  The player should record 3 penalty strokes for the hole for the causing the ball to move both times.

Note that 18-2b only says that the player incurs no additional penalty for not replacing the ball if it moves after he begins his stroke (as long as he completes the swing), but he is not absolved of the one stroke penalty for having caused the ball to move.

Thank you for the replies.  For GHIN recording purposes, I realized I can only take a 7 on the hole due to ESC and my current HC index.  Without the penalties, I recorded a 5.  Therefore, I have changed the score to a 7 and adjusted my round to 80.

To err on the side of caution, I would record two violations of Rule 18-2b for a total of 4 penalty strokes (or 9 on the hole) if this was tournament stroke play.  I am 90% sure the ball settled in the rough after I addressed it the first time.  I am also 90% sure the ball started to move before I started my stroke when I addressed it the second time.  Therefore, two violations of Rule 18-2b.

Again, I appreciate the input!

Actually the fact that he placed the club in the grass near the ball means that by rule, he is deemed to have caused the movement, if indeed the ball did move.  That is particularly true if there is no other identifiable cause.

If you are questioning whether the ball actually did move, only he can answer that question, and only he can say whether he incurred a penalty for it.

That's exactly what I meant. I should have been more clear. He said he wasn't sure if it had moved, and that's why he didn't replace it the first time. He mentioned that it may have been moving or oscillating when he made the actual stroke, neither of which would incur a penalty. It just doesn't strike me that, good intentions notwithstanding, he actually needs to penalize himself. As we've both said, only he can make the call. But based on what I read in the OP, I wouldn't question his decision to not penalize himself.

There is enough of a question in my mind that I do not feel comfortable claiming I shot a 78 free and clear of a penalty.  I am 100% comfortable taking a 7 on the hole and recording an 80 for my HC index.  I will continue my journey to break 80 (with a clear conscience).  At this point, I am hopeful that it will come sooner than later.

Thanks again for all of the input!

Except that in most such cases, any doubt is resolved against the player.  This is to ensure that he doesn't gain any advantage from a breach.  It may seem ticky-tack in this instance, but the next time or for the the next player the advantage could be very real.  You can't rule one way for one incident and differently for another.  Only basketball refs and baseball umpires are allowed to do that.

David, I think you may be overlooking that the OP wrote " I thought the ball may have settled slightly down into the rough when I initially addressed it ."    The only question is whether it moved.

Again, only he knows. He also seems to know the rule quite well and specifically said that he did not replace the ball. That led me to believe that he felt that the ball did not move. I'd never condone applying a rule in one case, but not another.

Then why are banana peels considered moveable obstructions (you can remove it) in a bunker and pear cores considered natural objects (you cannot remove it) even though there are no pear trees on the course or in the area (i.e. both the pear core and banana peel were from some slob's lunch)?

Banana peels and pear cores are both loose impediments.

But the banana peel can be removed from the bunker and the half-eaten pear or pear core cannot. Look up the decisions. It's asinine.

Best if you provide the  relevant info, Drv4show.  Letting (making) us do it just leads us to ignore the core.

I think you misunderstood the decisions Julia. Both the banana peel and the pear are natural objects, and therefore loose impediments. Neither can be removed. 23/3 Half-Eaten Pear Q.A half-eaten pear lies directly in front of a ball in a bunker and there is no pear tree in the vicinity of the bunker. In the circumstances, is the pear an obstruction rather than a loose impediment, in which case the player could remove it without penalty? A.No. A pear is a natural object. When detached from a tree it is a loose impediment. The fact that a pear has been half-eaten and there is no pear tree in the vicinity does not alter the status of the pear. 23/4 Fruit Skins Q.Is a banana skin or other fruit skin a loose impediment? A.Yes.

23/3

Half-Eaten Pear

23/4

Fruit Skins