Rules Question for OB & Proper Recording for GHIN

3somers1 · August 12, 2015

I have a scoring question that comes from two scenarios in my round this AM. The answers to the questions determines how I should record my score for GHIN.

The first scenario pertains to a "mulligan" or "breakfast ball" off the first tee. The first hole was a par 5. I hit a bad first tee shot which clipped a tree and neither of us knew where it went. I decided to hit a second ball. My partner and I agreed we each got 1 mulligan during the round (which we normally don't do). We did not find the first ball. Long story short, I shot par on the hole with the second ball as a mulligan. Otherwise, it would be a 7 with a stoke and distance penalty for the lost ball.

The second scenario pertains to an OB ruling on another par 5. I pulled my approach shot and found the ball very close to OB. The ball was laying in the rough, but it was close to the high grass. Therefore, it appeared to be in bounds at first look. I then looked for the OB stakes. The OB stake to one side was standing upright. The OB stake to the other side was lying on the ground in the tall grass. I almost missed it because it was knocked over. I could not determine where it was supposed to go in the ground (the bottom appeared broken). There was a bush in between my ball and the OB stake on the ground that hung over what would be the OB line. The bush and tall grass made it difficult to determine the line for OB (especially with the stake lying on the ground). I think it was either on the line or OB, but was not certain. My playing partner looked at the situation and stated it was in bounds and I should play it. I shot a bogey (6) on the hole. My ESC for the hole is a 7.

It is my understanding that OB is the nearest inside point of the stake at ground level. Therefore, the measuring point for the stake laying on the ground was the bottom edge nearest to the course. Also, I understand that a ball is OB when the entire ball is beyond the line. In this case, it was very difficult given the circumstances to determine if the ball was OB or on the line.

Question: Am I correct regarding the OB line based on the stakes and the ball being OB if it is completely over the line?

I shot a 78 this morning if I record a par on the first hole and a 6 on the hole with the OB question. The score will effect my HC so I want to record the appropriate score. I see my scoring options as:

1. 78 - The first par was a par because I essentially restarted the round. The OB question was resolved by my playing partner when he determined it was in bounds.

2. 80 - The first par should be recorded as a 7 because the first tee shot is a lost ball (or ESC of 7). Again, the OB question was resolved by my playing partner.

3. 81 - The first hole is a 7 and the "OB hole" should be recorded as a 7 (ESC) if it wasn't definitely determined that the ball was in bounds (although the circumstances made that difficult).

My thoughts . . . I should record an 80. In tournament play, there are no "breakfast balls" or "mulligans" on the first tee. Therefore, the first tee shot was a lost ball and I should record a 7. I believe the OB question was resolved when my playing partner agreed the ball was in bounds. That said, I don't want someone to think I am a sandbagger because I record an 80 when I shot a 78 (with a restart on the first tee).

I know I am overthinking this a bit. I am sure that many people record their scores after taking mulligans or taking a 3 foot gimme offered by their playing partners. In fact, I often play early as a single before work. In the past, I didn't always pull the pins in order to save time. If I am brutally honest, I should have added 2 strokes to those holes or not recorded the score; neither of which would have resulted in an appropriate HC index.

Thanks for your input!

**DaveP043** · August 12, 2015

I certainly agree that your first hole should be scored as a 7. For handicap scoring, I believe its appropriate to consider your "mulligan" as a provisional, so it became your third shot when you couldn't find your original ball.

For the second issue, its very difficult to form an opinion without actually seeing the area and the stakes and your ball and all the rest. If its me, and an OB stake has obviously been moved, so that I can't identify its original location, I'd look for other clues as to the limits of the OB. As you describe it, it seems that the "high grass" is OB, and the rough is in play. Since you don't mention a painted line, I'd proceed under the assumption that since your ball in the rough, not in the long grass, it is in play.

**Golfingdad** · August 12, 2015

When in doubt, lean towards that which would give you the lower score ... hence away from "sandbagging."

There's no doubt that your first hole is a double bogey 7, and your second scenario I'd score it as a 6 as you did. :)

**turtleback** · August 12, 2015

I certainly agree that your first hole should be scored as a 7. For handicap scoring, I believe its appropriate to consider your "mulligan" as a provisional, so it became your third shot when you couldn't find your original ball.
For the second issue, its very difficult to form an opinion without actually seeing the area and the stakes and your ball and all the rest. If its me, and an OB stake has obviously been moved, so that I can't identify its original location, I'd look for other clues as to the limits of the OB. As you describe it, it seems that the "high grass" is OB, and the rough is in play. Since you don't mention a painted line, I'd proceed under the assumption that since your ball in the rough, not in the long grass, it is in play.

Totally agree with everything you say except for one tiny nit. Unless he explicitly had declared that second ball as a provisional, which from his narrative he did not, it cannot be treated as a provisional. What he really did, and why your conclusion is correct, is simply replay his last shot under 27-1a. Since both are stroke and distance . . .

Some folks (not you) do not realize that you actually have to declare a re-hit a provisional if they want the option of finding and playing the original.

I will opine that I do not think that an OB stake lying on the ground should play any role in determining the extent of the OB area. I would ignore it and use the next stake in line. And if there was no next stake in line I would consider that the OB ended at the last vertical stake.

**Martyn W** · August 12, 2015

"I will opine that I do not think that an OB stake lying on the ground should play any role in determining the extent of the OB area. I would ignore it and use the next stake in line."

The Rules would indicate otherwise:

(See also 33-2a/20 (displaced Boundary Stake.)

33-2a/19

Boundary Altered by Unauthorized Removal of Boundary Stake

In stroke play, a boundary line has been altered through unauthorized removal of a boundary stake and, therefore, there is an area (Area X) which is in bounds if the removed stake is disregarded and out of bounds if the removed stake is replaced.

Q1 A's ball comes to rest in Area X. A is aware that the boundary has been altered. He asks the Committee for a ruling. What is the ruling?

A1 The Committee should replace the removed stake, i.e., restore the original boundary line and require A to proceed under Rule 27-1 ,

**DaveP043** · August 12, 2015

"I will opine that I do not think that an OB stake lying on the ground should play any role in determining the extent of the OB area. I would ignore it and use the next stake in line."

The Rules would indicate otherwise:

(See also 33-2a/20 (displaced Boundary Stake.)

33-2a/19

Boundary Altered by Unauthorized Removal of Boundary Stake

In stroke play, a boundary line has been altered through unauthorized removal of a boundary stake and, therefore, there is an area (Area X) which is in bounds if the removed stake is disregarded and out of bounds if the removed stake is replaced.

Q1 A's ball comes to rest in Area X. A is aware that the boundary has been altered. He asks the Committee for a ruling. What is the ruling?

A1 The Committee should replace the removed stake, i.e., restore the original boundary line and require A to proceed under Rule 27-1

This is undoubtedly correct, but we're not talking about a score to be used for tournament play. The OP is asking for guidance as to posting a score for handicap. He doesn't have to option of going to the Committee, as this was casual play, and the round is long over. If his ball actually was OB, he should post his most likely score, or his ESC, in either case a 7. By continuing as if his ball was in play, he essentially posted one shot lower, which seems perfectly appropriate for handicap purposes. Even if we take the view that he should post par plus handicap, saying that he didn't play the hole in accordance with the principles of the rules, he'd probably end up posting a 6. I know I'm assuming, but in my experience most par 5 holes receive a handicap stroke for a 10 to 12 handicap player.

I agree its important to understand this rule, in case it comes up during tournament play, but I don't believe it changes what he should post.

3somers1 · August 12, 2015

Thanks for all of the input. It is clear that my first scenario on the opening hole is easy to resolve. I will score the hole as a bogey due to a lost ball.

The OB issue is the more difficult issue to address. Martyn W posted the correct answer: the boundary stake should be replaced and the player should proceed as appropriate. The problem in my case this morning was that we could not determine the original location of the boundary stake. My partner and I determined that my ball was in bounds based upon (a) the location of the removed stake, (b) the line between the removed stake and the next stake, and (b) the condition of the area where my ball came to rest. Therefore, I played the ball as in bounds and scored a bogey (if I missed the bogey putt there would be no need for this thread because I would have recorded a 7). The method we used to determine if the ball was in bounds or not does not conform to the correct procedure/rules because the original location of the boundary stake could not be located.

DaveP043 makes an excellent suggestion of posting par plus handicap to resolve the problem since it appears I may not have played the hole in accordance with the principals of the Rules of Golf. However, I did not get a stroke on this hole based on my handicap so the score would be par. This does not seem appropriate as par was not my "most likely score" since I finished the hole with a bogey. [ NOTE: Thanks to DaveP043 because the information he provided helps me understand how people record scores for handicap purposes when taking "gimmes" for short putts. While researching his comment, I found Section 4-1/1 which states "'most likely score' is a judgment that each player must make based on the player's own game. It consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in the player's best judgment, the number of strokes needed to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. The player must evaluate each situation based on what the player can reasonably expect to score."]

The last option is to take a 7 on the hole as my ESC to err on the side of caution. However, I keep coming back to the fact my partner thought it was in bounds. We are fairly competitive. Therefore, I think he would have declared it OB and made me play pursuant to Rule 27-1 if he thought it was OB.

The reality is that I either score a 6 or 7 (ESC) on the hole which makes my score an 80 or 81. The one stroke is not going to greatly change my handicap index. I'm simply trying to figure out the most fair and appropriate answer.

**Martyn W** · August 12, 2015

I really admire your desire to find the correct answer and to 'do the right thing' but I think this horse is dead! Does the 80/81 fall into the best ten of the most recent 20 posted scores? If not, the thread is moot; if so it probably affects your index by less than one tenth of a stroke! It appears that, in your best, honest judgement that the ball was in bounds - post the 80 and sleep well!

**Dormie1360** · August 12, 2015

If you ask the USGA how to handle mulligans they will say a hole with a mulligan is a hole not played under the rules of golf. Consequently, for holes not played under the rules give yourself par plus any handicap strokes allocated to you based on your handicap. Part of the reason for this is although mulligans are normally taken for strokes from the tee, they can happen at any time. (a duffed chip for example)

Having said the above, given that the whole idea is to post an accurate score, if a stroke from the tee were lost or OB and a player then play's a mulligan, for posting I would not discard the first stroke, and apply the rules accordingly to come up with an accurate score for the first hole, minus any ESC adjustment.

Big picture, think in terms of posting an accurate score which reflects your playing ability.

**newtogolf** · August 12, 2015

Totally agree with everything you say except for one tiny nit. Unless he explicitly had declared that second ball as a provisional, which from his narrative he did not, it cannot be treated as a provisional. What he really did, and why your conclusion is correct, is simply replay his last shot under 27-1a. Since both are stroke and distance . . .

Some folks (not you) do not realize that you actually have to declare a re-hit a provisional if they want the option of finding and playing the original.

I will opine that I do not think that an OB stake lying on the ground should play any role in determining the extent of the OB area. I would ignore it and use the next stake in line. And if there was no next stake in line I would consider that the OB ended at the last vertical stake.

I'm not trying to hijack the thread but something you wrote (bolded area) hit me and could have cost me my club championship.

On the 10th hole I hit a big slice with my driver and the ball over flew trees and a hill where we lost sight of it. I declared I was going to re-hit, not hit a provisional. I hit a perfect drive down the middle of the fairway and was proceeding to my ball when our forecaddie announced that he had found my ball (he was simply looking to retrieve it so I didn't lose a ball). I asked him to pick it up because I had already re-hit but my opponent protested and said that since the forecaddie found my first ball I had to play it. I argued that I didn't hit the 2nd ball as a provisional and therefore I wasn't obligated to play the first ball. The forecaddie agreed with my opponent that since the first ball was found I had to play it.

It took me 3 shots to get it back to the fairway and fortunately my opponent messed up too so the result was a push but had I been able to play the 2nd ball laying 3 I would have likely won the hole. Am I correct in my understanding or was my opponent right?

**Missouri Swede** · August 12, 2015

I'm not trying to hijack the thread but something you wrote (bolded area) hit me and could have cost me my club championship.

On the 10th hole I hit a big slice with my driver and the ball over flew trees and a hill where we lost sight of it. I declared I was going to re-hit, not hit a provisional. I hit a perfect drive down the middle of the fairway and was proceeding to my ball when our forecaddie announced that he had found my ball (he was simply looking to retrieve it so I didn't lose a ball). I asked him to pick it up because I had already re-hit but my opponent protested and said that since the forecaddie found my first ball I had to play it. I argued that I didn't hit the 2nd ball as a provisional and therefore I wasn't obligated to play the first ball. The forecaddie agreed with my opponent that since the first ball was found I had to play it.

It took me 3 shots to get it back to the fairway and fortunately my opponent messed up too so the result was a push but had I been able to play the 2nd ball laying 3 I would have likely won the hole. Am I correct in my understanding or was my opponent right?

It looks like it hinges on whether you declared it to be a "provisional" or not. I would argue that I didn't announce it to be a provisional, and therefore it is the ball in play whether or not the original ball is found:

27-2. Provisional Ball
a. Procedure

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

27/9

Player Searches for Lost Ball After Putting Another Ball into Play

Q.According to Rule 27, if a player hits his tee shot into the woods and tees up and plays another ball without announcing it is a provisional ball, the second ball becomes the ball in play and the original ball is lost. In such a case, is the player precluded from searching for his original ball?

A.No. But the player must not play the ball if he finds it and must not unduly delay play.

**Fourputt** · August 12, 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback

Totally agree with everything you say except for one tiny nit. Unless he explicitly had declared that second ball as a provisional, which from his narrative he did not, it cannot be treated as a provisional. What he really did, and why your conclusion is correct, is simply replay his last shot under 27-1a. Since both are stroke and distance . . .

Some folks (not you) do not realize that you actually have to declare a re-hit a provisional if they want the option of finding and playing the original.

I will opine that I do not think that an OB stake lying on the ground should play any role in determining the extent of the OB area. I would ignore it and use the next stake in line. And if there was no next stake in line I would consider that the OB ended at the last vertical stake.

I'm not trying to hijack the thread but something you wrote (bolded area) hit me and could have cost me my club championship.

On the 10th hole I hit a big slice with my driver and the ball over flew trees and a hill where we lost sight of it. I declared I was going to re-hit, not hit a provisional. I hit a perfect drive down the middle of the fairway and was proceeding to my ball when our forecaddie announced that he had found my ball (he was simply looking to retrieve it so I didn't lose a ball). I asked him to pick it up because I had already re-hit but my opponent protested and said that since the forecaddie found my first ball I had to play it. I argued that I didn't hit the 2nd ball as a provisional and therefore I wasn't obligated to play the first ball. The forecaddie agreed with my opponent that since the first ball was found I had to play it.

It took me 3 shots to get it back to the fairway and fortunately my opponent messed up too so the result was a push but had I been able to play the 2nd ball laying 3 I would have likely won the hole. Am I correct in my understanding or was my opponent right?

If you didn't declare it as a provisional ball, then it wasn't a provisional ball, no matter how many others say it was. The original ball was abandoned as soon as you hit the second ball. You got jobbed through your own uncertainty.

**newtogolf** · August 13, 2015

If you didn't declare it as a provisional ball, then it wasn't a provisional ball, no matter how many others say it was. The original ball was abandoned as soon as you hit the second ball. You got jobbed through your own uncertainty.

I not only didn't declare it as a provisional but specifically stated I was going to "re-hit and take the penalty". If the caddie was uncertain I would have forced the issue and asked for a ruling from the committee but since they were both adamant and I'm not yet a "rules expert", especially not on match play, I deferred to them to not slow down the rest of the matches behind us.

I should have known because on another hole my opponent missed a short putt and out of frustration hit the ball with his putter before it came to rest and picked it up as if he was taking a "gimme". Upon seeing him do it, I asked him if he conceded the hole which he replied no and provided a score that was 1 greater than the number of strokes he had made. I told him that I was pretty confident that by hitting his ball before it stopped, then picking it up (and not marking it) and acting out of turn (since I would have been away once his ball came to rest) that he had forfeited the hole to which he argued he hadn't and just assumed that since it was a short putt I would have given it to him. I agreed I probably would have given it to him but that wasn't the point of my argument.

Sounds like instead of losing by 1 in a playoff I should have won by 2 in regulation, since both holes ended up being a push. Lesson learned, next time I'll better know the rules of match play and argue more forcefully when there's a dispute. Thanks.

**Martyn W** · August 13, 2015

I not only didn't declare it as a provisional but specifically stated I was going to "re-hit and take the penalty". If the caddie was uncertain I would have forced the issue and asked for a ruling from the committee but since they were both adamant and I'm not yet a "rules expert", especially not on match play, I deferred to them to not slow down the rest of the matches behind us.

I should have known because on another hole my opponent missed a short putt and out of frustration hit the ball with his putter before it came to rest and picked it up as if he was taking a "gimme". Upon seeing him do it, I asked him if he conceded the hole which he replied no and provided a score that was 1 greater than the number of strokes he had made. I told him that I was pretty confident that by hitting his ball before it stopped, then picking it up (and not marking it) and acting out of turn (since I would have been away once his ball came to rest) that he had forfeited the hole to which he argued he hadn't and just assumed that since it was a short putt I would have given it to him. I agreed I probably would have given it to him but that wasn't the point of my argument.

Sounds like instead of losing by 1 in a playoff I should have won by 2 in regulation, since both holes ended up being a push. Lesson learned, next time I'll better know the rules of match play and argue more forcefully when there's a dispute. Thanks.

The main thing to remember in matchplay is that there is no field to protect; you are simply looking out for your own interests.

If you don't care that your opponent breached a Rule - keep your mouth shut. If your opponent thinks you are playing a wrong ball (as in you case), remember 'its your ball, its your call'. If he doesn't like it, he must make a claim (see below). Note that you cannot play a second ball as in strokeplay.

2-5 . Doubt as to Procedure; Disputes and Claims

In match play, if a doubt or dispute arises between the players, a player may make a claim. If no duly authorized representative of the Committee is available within a reasonable time, the players must continue the match without delay. The Committee may consider a claim only if it has been made in a timely manner and if the player making the claim has notified his opponent at the time (i) that he is making a claim or wants a ruling and (ii) of the facts upon which the claim or ruling is to be based.

A claim is considered to have been made in a timely manner if, upon discovery of circumstances giving rise to a claim, the player makes his claim (i) before any player in the match plays from the next teeing ground , or (ii) in the case of the last hole of the match, before all players in the match leave the putting green , or (iii) when the circumstances giving rise to the claim are discovered after all the players in the match have left the putting green of the final hole, before the result of the match has been officially announced.

A claim relating to a prior hole in the match may only be considered by the Committee if it is based on facts previously unknown to the player making the claim and he had been given wrong information (Rules 6-2a or 9 ) by an opponent . Such a claim must be made in a timely manner.

Once the result of the match has been officially announced, a claim may not be considered by the Committee , unless it is satisfied that (i) the claim is based on facts which were previously unknown to the player making the claim at the time the result was officially announced, (ii) the player making the claim had been given wrong information by an opponent and (iii) the opponent knew he was giving wrong information. There is no time limit on considering such a claim.

Note 1: A player may disregard a breach of the Rules by his opponent provided there is no agreement by the sides to waive a Rule (Rule 1-3 ).

Note 2: In match play, if a player is doubtful of his rights or the correct procedure, he may not complete the play of the hole with two balls.

**turtleback** · August 13, 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback

Totally agree with everything you say except for one tiny nit. Unless he explicitly had declared that second ball as a provisional, which from his narrative he did not, it cannot be treated as a provisional. What he really did, and why your conclusion is correct, is simply replay his last shot under 27-1a. Since both are stroke and distance . . .

Some folks (not you) do not realize that you actually have to declare a re-hit a provisional if they want the option of finding and playing the original.

I will opine that I do not think that an OB stake lying on the ground should play any role in determining the extent of the OB area. I would ignore it and use the next stake in line. And if there was no next stake in line I would consider that the OB ended at the last vertical stake.

I'm not trying to hijack the thread but something you wrote (bolded area) hit me and could have cost me my club championship.

On the 10th hole I hit a big slice with my driver and the ball over flew trees and a hill where we lost sight of it. I declared I was going to re-hit, not hit a provisional. I hit a perfect drive down the middle of the fairway and was proceeding to my ball when our forecaddie announced that he had found my ball (he was simply looking to retrieve it so I didn't lose a ball). I asked him to pick it up because I had already re-hit but my opponent protested and said that since the forecaddie found my first ball I had to play it. I argued that I didn't hit the 2nd ball as a provisional and therefore I wasn't obligated to play the first ball. The forecaddie agreed with my opponent that since the first ball was found I had to play it.

It took me 3 shots to get it back to the fairway and fortunately my opponent messed up too so the result was a push but had I been able to play the 2nd ball laying 3 I would have likely won the hole. Am I correct in my understanding or was my opponent right?

Rule 27-1a. You wuz robbed. This would have been the perfect time to whip out your rule book.

Should it arise again I'd just ignore them, and continue to play the second ball. Your opponent can lodge a protest before his next tee shot and then the matter gets referred to the Committee for decision. You are risking the hole if you are wrong, but in this case you were clearly correct. It is nice when everything can be done by mutual agreement, but that is not always possible.

3somers1 · August 13, 2015

I really admire your desire to find the correct answer and to 'do the right thing' but I think this horse is dead! Does the 80/81 fall into the best ten of the most recent 20 posted scores? If not, the thread is moot; if so it probably affects your index by less than one tenth of a stroke! It appears that, in your best, honest judgement that the ball was in bounds - post the 80 and sleep well!

I appreciate your candor and agree this horse is dead! I posted an 80 and slept well last night. Thanks to all for the input.

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Rules Question for OB & Proper Recording for GHIN

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33-2a/19

Boundary Altered by Unauthorized Removal of Boundary Stake

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2-5 . Doubt as to Procedure; Disputes and Claims

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