Eureka Golf Swing

[Deegee54]

33 minutes ago, billchao said:

We like to have discussions here. That means openly offering opposing points of view. If you think refuting a claim is negativity then I don’t think this is the right place for you.

If you read through the thread and this is what you got out of it, I don’t know what to tell you, man. Every other post says people are glad it works for whoever posted about it.

That’s unnecessary. There are plenty of people here who are qualified to discuss golf swing theory by analysis. That’s kind of the whole idea behind swing analysis in the first place.

I’m willing to bet that sports therapy techniques are vetted much better than golf swing theories. Seems like something you’d need to have qualifications and certifications for, published in medical journals and all that. You wouldn’t try a treatment some random person suggested to you, would you?

Anybody can come up with golf swing concepts and post them online. That doesn’t make them qualified to know what they’re talking about. 

I think you’re reading tone in things that aren’t there. Think of this as golf’s version of peer review.

I’m glad it works for you.

For those of us who are interested in this sort of thing, we have to ask, why does it work? Without knowing your swing at all I can only assume, and my assumption would be that since most people tend to aim too far right (for a righty), you’re likely to be one of them, so simply opening your stance frees your body up to swing more out at the ball.

It’s also entirely possible that you’re not doing what you think you are. If you aren’t observing with video, how can you be sure? Feel ain’t real.

Long reply.  But you've never answered the question of why people see fit to be negative from the outset instead of,  'that's interesting,  illl give it a try". 

As for the therapy techniques,  no they are not from random people,  but other qualified therapists.  You try different things,  movements,  actions and exchange info with fellow Professionals. 

Bit like this Eureka Guy,  Johnson is a PGA teaching pro,  not some schmuck off the street.  Maybe,  just maybe he had something but as most other experts nearly always slag it off without putting club to ball. 

[Deegee54]

51 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Hey I'll chime in, because in this case I think I'm uniquely qualified. 

Let me start by saying I have no natural golf ability what so ever. As a matter of fact, I think God played a cruel trick on me by making me enjoy a game so much that I have no natural skill at. Having said that (and as many of you know) I get lessons from @iacas. With his help I no longer suck at golf.... well, sometimes... but that's a different story. 

Okay, here's my point. Once I found a tip on "the internet" it was a Youtube video that promised more length off the tee. (Doesn't matter which one.) I started incorporating that tip into my swing. Initially it worked great. My tee shots were in fact longer. (Not just a guess, I was able to track them with Arccos.) This worked great for me. Life was coming up roses. Okay, fast forward 4 weeks. Suddenly I can't get off the tee at all. The more I tried to fix it the worse it got. 

Here was my problem. Yes, what the Youtube video showed me was correct, and effective. But when I started to get squirrely, without the helpful eye of a quality coach. I was forced to make a correction on my own. Which led to another correction. Which led to another .... and so on... You get the idea. By time I got back to @iacas he was like "WTF?"  

So, I told him the story and he laughed and started fixing me all over again. 

So, getting to the point now I swear. Here it is. You can learn from Youtube videos. Absolutely. But you don't get the feedback you get from a real swing coach. You might be fixing stuff that causing other issues. Or compensating. If you don't really know what your problem is you can get totally off the rails. OR ... Maybe you fix the correct problem and then you develop a new problem. It can be difficult to know if you have developed a new problem or went back to an old problem. 

So, my advice is get a real swing coach. Even if it's one where you are only sending him/her videos. At least that way they can diagnose what your real problem is and help you fix it. Also, if you want to incorporate something you learn on-line, you will then have somebody to discuss it with and see if it makes sense with the other stuff you are doing. 
 

Anyway, there's my 2 cents. 

Thanks for replying. 

You are right in many ways however,  if I had a Pound for every Buddy that's had 1-2-1 lessons with a Pro that works well when he's there,  then after actually going to a REAL course and it all goes tits up..... I'd be a very rich man. 

 

[Big Lex]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

We have a lot of golfers here who want to know what ACTUALLY happens, and they realize that they might feel something that isn't actually happening, but they don't like being told you're "measuring" something when you're not. They don't like heavy salesman-like techniques that are more lie than truth, or reality.

 

I want to chip in 2 cents. Okay, maybe more like 2 dollars.

I have fallen for so many things like this in my golfing life. They are exactly as the last quoted sentence above implies: Sales pitches. They fool us, because like someone who is falling in love with someone, you (at first) interpret everything in the most positive way possible. You are ready to believe everything, because she (or in this case the New Swing) will make all your dreams come true! You will be a scratch player, or better, even! Maybe you can make the Champions Tour some day!

I absolutely DESPISE how "science" is used to substantiate stuff like this. As @iacas points out - and I suspect most of us probably figured out at some point - it is beyond arbitrary and stupid to draw a line on a 2D video and claim you've measured something. Another approach we see often is looking at two-dimensional still images and claiming that you understand the forces and the motion dynamics happening at that moment. And then things like 3D motion capture, GEARS, etc., come along and we learn how wrong some assumptions about "fundamentals" were. 

And then there is the hucksterism, the carneys. You cannot open any golf video on youtube today without first watching an ad by either Hank Haney or Chuck Whateverhisnameis. "NINETY PERCENT OF GOLFERS SLICE. AND IF YOU'RE ONE OF THEM, THERE'S ONLY ONE REASON WHY!" Yeah, right. Anything to get you to click. To watch a few minutes. To sign up for a free trial. To buy the thing that straps to your wrist that "guarantees" perfect contact every time. 

Being good at golf (or any other sport or vocation or avocation) involves no secrets, no magic, no tricks. It involves working hard and adjusting your motion in accordance with correct feedback. For most of us, we are incapable of reaching a high level without the assistance of a professional, who is able to discern what we are doing wrong much more accurately than we can determine by trial and error, and who can direct us and train us to be able to obtain proper feedback to enable learning. 

As I said, I've fallen for stuff like this for years. It's held me back, because I've fallen for the seduction of a quick answer or a secret, simple key. And you can understand the seduction, because often these approaches do work, to a degree: they do something to improve your striking, but it's fleeting, and eventually, your ingrained flaws and lack of true understanding return, tragically.

Just hoping I have enough years left to do it the right way. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Big Lex

[Vinsk]

41 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

But you've never answered the question of why people see fit to be negative from the outset instead of,  'that's interesting,  illl give it a try". 

What do you mean by negative? You mean not agreeing with you? Not joining the band wagon? These guys are merely pointing out issues with this system. You don’t care about the intricacies of the mechanics and that’s fine. Others do. That’s all.

[imsys0042]

37 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

Long reply.  But you've never answered the question of why people see fit to be negative from the outset instead of,  'that's interesting,  illl give it a try". 

As for the therapy techniques,  no they are not from random people,  but other qualified therapists.  You try different things,  movements,  actions and exchange info with fellow Professionals. 

Bit like this Eureka Guy,  Johnson is a PGA teaching pro,  not some schmuck off the street.  Maybe,  just maybe he had something but as most other experts nearly always slag it off without putting club to ball. 

In my experience on this site it's because there have been a number of people who don't listen to cold hard facts, or detailed explanations from people who know their topics well and can break down issues in what is being discussed.   The attitude among Erik and the other knowledgable people on this site has pretty much always been that if you are happy doing what you are doing, do it!   However that doesn't mean that there are shortfalls or that there aren't better ways.

And it's the arguing from people who have limited knowledge about these topics when they are up against very knowledgable people that causes a lot of friction.   As Erik mentioned, people seem to find this thread from googling the topic.  Well the people here care enough to give their opinion and not leave it as something that it going to mislead people.   Can people get benefit from it, yes I think so.   But there are real limits to what can be done with it, and there are legit issues with it that people call out here.

[billchao]

32 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

Long reply.  But you've never answered the question of why people see fit to be negative from the outset 

I did, yea? It’s called having a discussion. Refuting a claim isn’t “being negative from the outset,” that’s just your perspective.

34 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

instead of,  'that's interesting,  illl give it a try". 

And why would I? Why would @iacas, who is a golf instructor?

 If it doesn’t address my own swing issues, why would I try it? Why should anyone do that? Trying one thing or another randomly is not how you fix a golf swing.

39 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

As for the therapy techniques,  no they are not from random people,  but other qualified therapists.  You try different things,  movements,  actions and exchange info with fellow Professionals. 

Bit like this Eureka Guy,  Johnson is a PGA teaching pro,  not some schmuck off the street.

Being a PGA professional is not the same as being a PT.

And again, think of criticism as peer review. You haven’t addressed this point.

43 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

Maybe,  just maybe he had something but as most other experts nearly always slag it off without putting club to ball. 

There’s no undiscovered secret to alignment. Hips, shoulders, and feet can be lined up independently and are, even in major champions.

[Big Lex]

2 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

For me it's  feet aim left with open hips,  shoulder line matches target line and then the club and right forearm trace the outside line.. Its very pivot driven with weight kept towards target all the time. 

It works hugely for me.  One huge difference is where the ball strikes the club face.  It used to be close to the hosel (a few sh@nks) but now the strike has moved half inch to the centre. 

And I agree it's awesome that this has helped you so much. A reduction in HI of 2 points is huge. 

Here is Wayne D's version of the same thing, pitched as a swing for senior golfers. I remember this as the opposite of the Eureka swing, but it's really very similar. 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Big Lex

[Deegee54]

Hilarious.  Loads of replies that to be honest exactly prove my point.  

Instead of putting something down,  which happens on every golf forum,  why can't the opposite happen? 

It sounds nonsensical but you never know,  I might give it a go and report back how crap it is (or good). 

Would you give any credence to a new car review whereby the author states its a rubbish vehicle although I've never actually sat in it let alone drove it. 😉

[billchao]

2 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

Hilarious.  Loads of replies that to be honest exactly prove my point.  

Instead of putting something down,  which happens on every golf forum,  why can't the opposite happen? 

It sounds nonsensical but you never know,  I might give it a go and report back how crap it is (or good). 

Would you give any credence to a new car review whereby the author states its a rubbish vehicle although I've never actually sat in it let alone drove it. 😉

You’ve provided nothing of substance to the discussion so far besides, “don’t knock it until you try it,” as if somehow that invalidates other people’s knowledge and experience. You’ve stated yourself that you don’t understand the jargon which implies you don’t really have much expertise in golf swing theory.

Again, I’m happy it works for you. But it’s just golf, man. Why do you care so much if other people dismiss someone else’s swing theory?

[Vinsk]

9 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

nstead of putting something down,  which happens on every golf forum,  why can't the opposite happen? 

So, in other words, why can’t you all just ignore that he’s making errors and just blow smoke up his ass like I am? Come on man. 

[Deegee54]

23 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

And I agree it's awesome that this has helped you so much. A reduction in HI of 2 points is huge. 

Here is Wayne D's version of the same thing, pitched as a swing for senior golfers. I remember this as the opposite of the Eureka swing, but it's really very similar. 

 

Interesting.  But I would not slag it off without trying what he says.  His feet line is open which I like. But when instructors talk about dropping into slots or shallowing then I switch off. Tried it but it never works for me (I'm not saying that is what he's saying).. But I'd try first. 

12 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

So, in other words, why can’t you all just ignore that he’s making errors and just blow smoke up his ass like I am? Come on man. 

Try it,  then come back! 

Thousands of years the earth was flat but then........ Someone said it wasn't. 

16 minutes ago, billchao said:

You’ve provided nothing of substance to the discussion so far besides, “don’t knock it until you try it,” as if somehow that invalidates other people’s knowledge and experience. You’ve stated yourself that you don’t understand the jargon which implies you don’t really have much expertise in golf swing theory.

Again, I’m happy it works for you. But it’s just golf, man. Why do you care so much if other people dismiss someone else’s swing theory?

Exactly!   Don't knock it till you try it... Seems to be the ethos in every walk of life except when it comes to golf swing experts. 

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, Deegee54 said:

Long reply.  But you've never answered the question of why people see fit to be negative from the outset instead of,  'that's interesting,  illl give it a try". 

Stating facts is not being negative. It is actually detrimental, in nearly all cases, to tell white lies for the sake of someone's feelings. That is what you are asking us to do. 

1. A lot of people on this forum are already getting instruction from someone else. For example, I think I have a really good golf instructor and I am not interested in trying some new golf theory from Youtube. I have seen big time improvement in my golf swing, and when my game goes off the rails it is mostly my fault because I get lazy. GOLF IS HARD. To be good, and I do not mean some double digit handicap, but getting near scratch golf, it is HARD. It takes exponentially more work to drop from a 5 handicap to a scratch golfer than it does a 30 handicap to a15 handicap. 

2. Like @iacas said, feel is not real. Example, and this has been proven on video and by the GEARS system (which is stupidly accurate as measuring swing movements), I have to "FEEL" like I send my hands down towards my right pocket from the top of the swing to get the clubhead and hands to line up on a good path to hit the ball. This is why some generic swing theory on YouTube does not work out well for all golfers. You might be the Unicorn of golfers since it worked for you. The best path is for a golfer to develop their own feels that produces the motions they want, that gives them the most consistent swing to take to the course. 

3. There are not golf systems for one person. This is an tale old as time in the golf industry. How many infomercials has there been of people claiming. 'WE HAVE SOLVED THE GOLF SWING!!!". Yet, those people have amounted to nothing. If any of them were correct, every PGA Tour player would have that swing system. 

All of this is not being negative, it's being honest and putting down constructive conversation, mostly for other people who would read this topic. 

39 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

Would you give any credence to a new car review whereby the author states its a rubbish vehicle although I've never actually sat in it let alone drove it. 😉

Horrible comparison. 

Like I posted above, there are a lot of people here with instructors, who are seeing significant results in their golf swings. If you are seeing results, why would you switch to some golf instructor on YouTube? It would be horrible rude to do so. 

To say, do not knock it until you try it, is just a stupid adage anyways. That sounds like something a used car sales man would say. 

19 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

His feet line is open which I like. But when instructors talk about dropping into slots or shallowing then I switch off. Tried it but it never works for me (I'm not saying that is what he's saying).. But I'd try first. 

Tried it, but did you actually train for it? There is a difference. I bet, if you actually worked with a video camera, you could get a feel that produces the shallowing effect in the video. 

 

[Deegee54]

27 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Stating facts is not being negative. It is actually detrimental, in nearly all cases, to tell white lies for the sake of someone's feelings. That is what you are asking us to do. 

1. A lot of people on this forum are already getting instruction from someone else. For example, I think I have a really good golf instructor and I am not interested in trying some new golf theory from Youtube. I have seen big time improvement in my golf swing, and when my game goes off the rails it is mostly my fault because I get lazy. GOLF IS HARD. To be good, and I do not mean some double digit handicap, but getting near scratch golf, it is HARD. It takes exponentially more work to drop from a 5 handicap to a scratch golfer than it does a 30 handicap to a15 handicap. 

2. Like @iacas said, feel is not real. Example, and this has been proven on video and by the GEARS system (which is stupidly accurate as measuring swing movements), I have to "FEEL" like I send my hands down towards my right pocket from the top of the swing to get the clubhead and hands to line up on a good path to hit the ball. This is why some generic swing theory on YouTube does not work out well for all golfers. You might be the Unicorn of golfers since it worked for you. The best path is for a golfer to develop their own feels that produces the motions they want, that gives them the most consistent swing to take to the course. 

3. There are not golf systems for one person. This is an tale old as time in the golf industry. How many infomercials has there been of people claiming. 'WE HAVE SOLVED THE GOLF SWING!!!". Yet, those people have amounted to nothing. If any of them were correct, every PGA Tour player would have that swing system. 

All of this is not being negative, it's being honest and putting down constructive conversation, mostly for other people who would read this topic. 

Horrible comparison. 

Like I posted above, there are a lot of people here with instructors, who are seeing significant results in their golf swings. If you are seeing results, why would you switch to some golf instructor on YouTube? It would be horrible rude to do so. 

To say, do not knock it until you try it, is just a stupid adage anyways. That sounds like something a used car sales man would say. 

Tried it, but did you actually train for it? There is a difference. I bet, if you actually worked with a video camera, you could get a feel that produces the shallowing effect in the video. 

 

tell you what - go away, try what this PGA teaching Profesional is showing then come back if its a load of garbage.

Didnt realise there were so many precious people on here that are always right and never wrong.

[imsys0042]

2 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

Long reply.  But you've never answered the question of why people see fit to be negative from the outset instead of,  'that's interesting,  illl give it a try". 

As for the therapy techniques,  no they are not from random people,  but other qualified therapists.  You try different things,  movements,  actions and exchange info with fellow Professionals. 

Bit like this Eureka Guy,  Johnson is a PGA teaching pro,  not some schmuck off the street.  Maybe,  just maybe he had something but as most other experts nearly always slag it off without putting club to ball. 

People have answered about what the limitations and issues that there are with this method.  It might work for some people and help them, but there is probably a limit to the amount of help vs. working with a good local pro.

 

1 hour ago, Deegee54 said:

Thanks for replying. 

You are right in many ways however,  if I had a Pound for every Buddy that's had 1-2-1 lessons with a Pro that works well when he's there,  then after actually going to a REAL course and it all goes tits up..... I'd be a very rich man. 

 

 

You are completely missing the point of what lessons are supposed to do if you make changes.   Heck my local pro told me point blank that it was going to take time and he specifically wanted me to have a couple of practice sessions before playing because it's going to take time.  He also funnily said "if you go play now it'll be the worst round ever".   That's pretty basic.   Find a good pro, make sure you commit to the changes and the amount of time and keep listening.   It's a real dunce who takes lessons, goes and plays 1-2 times and then thinks they know better.

 

1 hour ago, Deegee54 said:

Hilarious.  Loads of replies that to be honest exactly prove my point.  

Instead of putting something down,  which happens on every golf forum,  why can't the opposite happen? 

It sounds nonsensical but you never know,  I might give it a go and report back how crap it is (or good). 

Would you give any credence to a new car review whereby the author states its a rubbish vehicle although I've never actually sat in it let alone drove it. 😉

The only point being proved is that you won't tolerate anything other than your viewpoint.    And there is a difference between putting something down and calling out issues with it.

And yes, if my listening to experts who review and give their opinions, backed up by facts, then I don't need to drive the car.   The key requirement is that you trust who is giving the review and they know what they are talking about.

Kind of like going to a golf forum, run by a respected teacher and oodles of knowledgable people about the game of golf and swing mechanics and listening to what they have to say.

48 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

Interesting.  But I would not slag it off without trying what he says.  His feet line is open which I like. But when instructors talk about dropping into slots or shallowing then I switch off. Tried it but it never works for me (I'm not saying that is what he's saying).. But I'd try first. 

Try it,  then come back! 

Thousands of years the earth was flat but then........ Someone said it wasn't. 

Exactly!   Don't knock it till you try it... Seems to be the ethos in every walk of life except when it comes to golf swing experts. 

That kind of philosophy only works...until it doesn't.   Why would I go and try something like this when I have a community like this where I've taken several things to the course from the help provided and I already work with a good professional?   Maybe you, or other people, don't want to do that...that's fine.   Saying that people refuse to listen is really another way of saying "I don't want to listen to what the majority of people say".   If there was something revolutionary in what was being taught it would get out there.   This seems to me to be gimmicky, like diamond dust on a wedge or magical clubs that save you 5-7 shots a round.   Both examples of magical wishful thinking.

I hope the system works for you, I really do.   But don't sign up here and troll like this.   No one will put up with it in the very near future.  Feel free to post on other topics and engage nicely, or keep your post count as close to the current 7 as possible.   Either way is fine.

2 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

tell you what - go away, try what this PGA teaching Profesional is showing then come back if its a load of garbage.

Didnt realise there were so many precious people on here that are always right and never wrong.

Actually this came in while I was typing.  Please feel free to go away, yourself.   

[Vinsk]

12 minutes ago, Deegee54 said:

tell you what - go away, try what this PGA teaching Profesional is showing then come back if its a load of garbage.

I did just that. Just finished a bucket trying what he’s teaching. It was awful. Shanks, pushes, push slices. I did manage to hit about 10 shots that were nice draws but not any more distance than my own hilarious method.

I’m pretty disappointed. You really had me going this was gonna be a Eureka moment. It’s probably like any other method in that there has to exist some sort of natural talent which I and @ChetlovesMer lack. So unless every single aspect of the swing is detailed correctly to us, we’re not gonna get it right. And when we do make the swing that looks right on video, the feel is so foreign and unrepeatable to us we find ourselves reverting back to comfort. Sorry I spoke for you Chet.

[Deegee54]

1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

I did just that. Just finished a bucket trying what he’s teaching. It was awful. Shanks, pushes, push slices. I did manage to hit about 10 shots that were nice draws but not any more distance than my own hilarious method.

I’m pretty disappointed. You really had me going this was gonna be a Eureka moment. It’s probably like any other method in that there has to exist some sort of natural talent which I and @ChetlovesMer lack. So unless every single aspect of the swing is detailed correctly to us, we’re not gonna get it right. And when we do make the swing that looks right on video, the feel is so foreign and unrepeatable to us we find ourselves reverting back to comfort. Sorry I spoke for you Chet.

Respect to you for actually trying.  Your post is worth a lot more than others.  👍

[ChetlovesMer]

2 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

Thanks for replying. 

You are right in many ways however,  if I had a Pound for every Buddy that's had 1-2-1 lessons with a Pro that works well when he's there,  then after actually going to a REAL course and it all goes tits up..... I'd be a very rich man. 

 

Of course, just like a youtube video. If you are just going to watch it and then expect it to change your swing you will be disappointed. 
Similarly, if you are just going to get a lesson from a pro and expect it to change your swing, you will also be disappointed. 

A couple of things. 
You certainly can learn any way you want to. Do what works for you. 

Notice in my post I said "swing coach", not "pro". I see many pros who aren't coaching. That's why it may take a while to find one who's right for you. Took me a while. 
I believe a good swing coach will not only help you find a "feel" if you will. But will also help you learn to reinforce those feels as you practice. Then check progress as you go along. I send video back and forth to @iacas between lessons and he's quick to respond and point out if I'm reinforcing the right things. Or, if I'm getting off track. These are things you don't get from some... okay, possibly many "pros". But you DO get these things from a good coach. Incidentally, you normally don't get those things from a youtube video. 

Lastly, what ever works for you is great. There's no "right" way to hit a ball. There are some ways will produce better results. There are some ways that are more repeatable and what works for one person won't work for another. Enjoying golf is the goal. Getting better tends to make it more enjoyable. 😁

16 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I’m pretty disappointed. You really had me going this was gonna be a Eureka moment. It’s probably like any other method in that there has to exist some sort of natural talent which I and @ChetlovesMer lack. So unless every single aspect of the swing is detailed correctly to us, we’re not gonna get it right. And when we do make the swing that looks right on video, the feel is so foreign and unrepeatable to us we find ourselves reverting back to comfort. Sorry I spoke for you Chet.

No reason to be sorry. What you said typed is factual. I'm not offended. 👍👍

[StuM]

3 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

As a matter of fact, I think God played a cruel trick on me by making me enjoy a game so much that I have no natural skill at.

I'm with you on that one.

I am far from being an expert on the golf swing so I can't and won't offer an opinion on this other than I'm glad it worked for you and hope it continues to work.