Jump to content
IGNORED

Dropped Ball, Found and Played Original


Note: This thread is 1913 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Can I get clarification on this rule please. I dropped a ball when I believed my original ball landed in the water and then before hitting my dropped ball I found original ball and proceeded to continue to play with my original ball. Upon finding original ball I played it where it lied into the green. My opponent said that it was a penalty to not play my second ball because I dropped it.., i said if I had hit the dropped ball thenI would have had to play it in, but because I found my original ball was obligated to continue with the original.

 

Clarification please. 

 

  • Upvote 1

  • iacas changed the title to Dropped Ball, Found and Played Original

You may not play a provisional for a ball thought to be lost in a penalty area.

Since you were not playing a provisional for a ball thought to be lost outside of a penalty area, once you dropped the second ball, it became the ball in play.

Rule 18.3 applies

 

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
4 minutes ago, David in FL said:

You may not play a provisional for a ball thought to be lost in a penalty area.

Since you were not playing a provisional for a ball thought to be lost outside of a penalty area, once you dropped the second ball, it became the ball in play.

Rule 18.3 applies

Not necessarily, David. You can sometimes pick up a dropped ball just the same way you can correct an incorrect drop procedure if you haven't yet played a stroke.

Plus, @JOBS, please clarify WHERE you dropped the ball? Where you originally played from? Or near the penalty area?

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

22 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not necessarily, David. You can sometimes pick up a dropped ball just the same way you can correct an incorrect drop procedure if you haven't yet played a stroke.

Plus, @JOBS, please clarify WHERE you dropped the ball? Where you originally played from? Or near the penalty area?

Good point.  I should’ve asked the follow up question...

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

9 hours ago, JOBS said:

Can I get clarification on this rule please. I dropped a ball when I believed my original ball landed in the water and then before hitting my dropped ball I found original ball and proceeded to continue to play with my original ball. Upon finding original ball I played it where it lied into the green. My opponent said that it was a penalty to not play my second ball because I dropped it.., i said if I had hit the dropped ball thenI would have had to play it in, but because I found my original ball was obligated to continue with the original.

 

Clarification please. 

 

Before dropping the ball did you have knowledge or virtual certainty that the original ball was in the penalty area? The answer hinges on this.


  • Moderator

The way I read this, @JOBS dropped a ball intending to take relief for a ball in a penalty area (he mentions water).  As I understand it, if he finds his original ball with 3 minutes of beginning to search, and he hasn't played the other ball, the original ball would be the one in play.  I believe that when he finds his original, the dropped ball may not be played.  If the original is in the PA, and he chooses to take relief, he would be required to drop again, but I'm not dead certain of that bit.  If he doesn't find the original, and was virtually certain it was in the PA, he would be right in playing the dropped ball, assuming it was dropped properly in the appropriate relief area.  

Dave

:callaway: Rogue SubZero Driver

:titleist: 915F 15 Fairway, 816 H1 19 Hybrid, AP2 4 iron to PW, Vokey 52, 56, and 60 wedges, ProV1 balls 
:ping: G5i putter, B60 version
 :ping:Hoofer Bag, complete with Newport Cup logo
:footjoy::true_linkswear:, and Ashworth shoes

the only thing wrong with this car is the nut behind the wheel.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

10 minutes ago, Wendy Dominick said:

Before dropping the ball did you have knowledge or virtual certainty that the original ball was in the penalty area? The answer hinges on this.  

 

Yes, we called it in the water and dropped in the correct area as a hazard drop.  Then we found the original. 

I dropped the ball by the drop area where it presumably went in the water.  I then found my original ball never stoking the dropped ball. 

Yes, Dave that is what occurred.  I would have simply played the drop ball if we never found my original ball thereby taking the penalty stroke per usual for any water hazard. 


In that case you’re fine to have picked up the dropped ball.  :beer:

In my first answer I envisioned a completely different scenario that I should’ve clarified.

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

(edited)
1 hour ago, David in FL said:

In that case you’re fine to have picked up the dropped ball.

Then I’m confused about which ball is in play. 

@JOBS had a ball in play, which he believed went into a penalty area. He dropped a ball to take relief from the penalty area, with the intent for it to be the ball in play.  He did not drop this as a provisional ball. Does this not make the dropped ball the ball in play?

Go to the definitions:

In Play:

Quote

That ball remains in play until it is holed, except that it is no longer in play:

    »    When it is lifted from the course,

    »    When it is lost (even if it is at rest on the course) or comes to rest out of bounds, or

    »    When another ball has been substituted for it, even if not allowed by a Rule.

Substitute:

Quote

A substituted ball is the player’s ball in play even if:

    •    It was replaced, dropped or placed in a wrong way or wrong place, or

    •    The player was required under the Rules to put the original ball back in play rather than to substitute another ball.

Drop:

Quote

To hold the ball and let go of it so that it falls through the air, with the intent for the ball to be in play.

If the Rules require a stroke to be made at the dropped ball for it to be the ball in play, I’m not seeing it. (And that’s possible—maybe I’m not seeing it in an Interpretation. I’ve been wrong before.)

Didn’t Rickie Fowler take relief from a penalty area earlier this year, then his dropped ball also rolled into the same penalty area, so he had to take relief again? If a stroke was required, then Fowler could have made the case that his dropped ball wasn’t in play yet. Found it: Waste Management Phoenix Open. 

rickie-fowler-griffin-connell.jpg

Rickie Fowler made a triple-bogey 7 at TPC Scottsdale's 11th hole during the Phoenix Open when his ball rolled back in the water after a penalty drop

So didn’t @JOBS‘s dropped ball become the ball in play when he dropped it with intent to take relief from the penalty area?

(Haven’t had my morning coffee yet! Sorry.)

 

Edited by Missouri Swede

Craig
What's in the :ogio: Silencer bag (on the :clicgear: cart)
Driver: :callaway: Razr Fit 10.5°  
5 Wood: :tmade: Burner  
Hybrid: :cobra: Baffler DWS 20°
Irons: :ping: G400 
Wedge: :ping: Glide 2.0 54° ES grind 
Putter: :heavyputter:  midweight CX2
:aimpoint:,  :bushnell: Tour V4

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

2 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

 If a stroke was required, then Fowler could have made the case that his dropped ball wasn’t in play yet

Just like @JOBS did, I believe Fowler would have had to have found the ball from his 3rd shot (in the water) and hit the ball from there in order for the dropped ball to not be the ball in play. 

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Max ST LS
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood
Irons: :titleist: U505 (3)  :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   :titleist: SM9 54/58  
Putter: :tmade: Spider X

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Fowlers' situation was not the same as mine I believe? His dropped ball created another penalty upon his drop having already identified his original ball that landed in the water? My original ball was playable and would never have been a penalty shot. If I had landed in the water then I would have hit my dropped ball and played it all the way in to the hole.

I found my original ball before hitting the dropped ball and well within 3 minutes of looking.  Frankly , it was a fluke that I actually found my original ball and was glad that I had not hit the dropped ball or that would have been my ball with the penalty attached. 

 


19 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Then I’m confused about which ball is in play. 

@JOBS had a ball in play, which he believed went into a penalty area. He dropped a ball to take relief from the penalty area, with the intent for it to be the ball in play.  He did not drop this as a provisional ball. Does this not make the dropped ball the ball in play?

Go to the definitions:

In Play:

Substitute:

Drop:

If the Rules require a stroke to be made at the dropped ball for it to be the ball in play, I’m not seeing it. (And that’s possible—maybe I’m not seeing it in an Interpretation. I’ve been wrong before.)

Didn’t Rickie Fowler take relief from a penalty area earlier this year, then his dropped ball also rolled into the same penalty area, so he had to take relief again? If a stroke was required, then Fowler could have made the case that his dropped ball wasn’t in play yet. Found it: Waste Management Phoenix Open. 

rickie-fowler-griffin-connell.jpg

Rickie Fowler made a triple-bogey 7 at TPC Scottsdale's 11th hole during the Phoenix Open when his ball rolled back in the water after a penalty drop

So didn’t @JOBS‘s dropped ball become the ball in play when he dropped it with intent to take relief from the penalty area?

(Haven’t had my morning coffee yet! Sorry.)

 

My interpretation...

Since the original ball was found outside of the penalty area, his drop was incorrect.  Had it been lost outside of the penalty area, it would’ve required stroke and distance, so had he played the dropped ball, he would have been playing from the wrong place.  He’s  allowed to pick up that ball to keep from doing that.  As such, it hasn’t yet become the ball in play, leaving that designation with the original ball.

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator

In response to @Missouri Swede, I believe 14.5 covers this:

Quote

a. Player May Lift Ball to Correct Mistake Before Ball Is Played

When a player has substituted another ball for the original ball when not allowed under the Rules or the player’s ball in play was replaced, dropped or placed (1) in a wrong place or came to rest in a wrong place, (2) in a wrong way or (3) by using a procedure that did not apply:

  • The player may lift the ball without penalty and correct the mistake.

  • But this is allowed only before the ball is played.

As @David in FL says, the dropped ball was substituted for the original when not allowed, since the original wasn't in the Penalty Area.  

  • Upvote 1

Dave

:callaway: Rogue SubZero Driver

:titleist: 915F 15 Fairway, 816 H1 19 Hybrid, AP2 4 iron to PW, Vokey 52, 56, and 60 wedges, ProV1 balls 
:ping: G5i putter, B60 version
 :ping:Hoofer Bag, complete with Newport Cup logo
:footjoy::true_linkswear:, and Ashworth shoes

the only thing wrong with this car is the nut behind the wheel.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

(edited)

To be clear: The dropped ball was not a provisional ball.  It was for a water hazard shot. Before hitting the penalty ball I looked all around to be sure we couldn't find my ball and about 15ft back I saw my ball.  It was playable and was well within the 3 minute time zone.  There never would have been any need to drop a ball if we had walked up to the original ball. It was just buried in the ruff so spotting it was made more difficult,  which is why we all thought it had gone in the water.  There never would have been a need for any penalty shot. The ball was not OB nor was it in the hazard zone. It was just buried and close to the water. 

Edited by JOBS
  • Like 1

(edited)

Just another thought...…trying to make sure I get it right...….

Would dropping a new ball constitute declaration of the 1st ball being considered lost, The 3 min rule is discarded when the new ball is dropped and therefore the 1st ball would no longer be in play even if found?

 

 

Edited by IowaGreg

Remember when reading posts...…. Communication: 80% Body Language; 15% Tone & 5% Actual Words
We'd all be best selling authors if we could communicate in the written word as well as we would like.

:aimpoint:    :bushnell:    :sunmountain:   :ogio:   :titleist:
:mizuno:  Mizuno ST180 Driver
:ping:  Ping G400 fairway 3 
:cleveland:  Cleveland HB Launcher Iron set  4-PW  50/56/60 CBX Wedges
:callaway:  64 Calloway Lob Wedge
 :scotty_cameron:    Scotty Camron GOLO 3

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

To be clear: The dropped ball was not a provisional ball.  It was for a water hazard shot. Before hitting the penalty ball I looked all around to be sure we couldn't find my ball and about 15ft back I saw my ball.  It was playable and was well within the 3 minute time zone.  There never would have been any need to drop a ball if we had walked up to the original ball. It was just buried in the ruff so spotting it was made more difficult,  which is why we all thought it had gone in the water.  There never would have been a need for any penalty shot. It was not OB, it was not  in the hard zone. It was just buried. 


(edited)
45 minutes ago, David in FL said:

My interpretation...

Since the original ball was found outside of the penalty area, his drop was incorrect.  Had it been lost outside of the penalty area, it would’ve required stroke and distance, so had he played the dropped ball, he would have been playing from the wrong place.  He’s  allowed to pick up that ball to keep from doing that.  As such, it hasn’t yet become the ball in play, leaving that designation with the original ball.

 

43 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

In response to @Missouri Swede, I believe 14.5 covers this:

As @David in FL says, the dropped ball was substituted for the original when not allowed, since the original wasn't in the Penalty Area.  

Thanks. I think you’re right. Rule 14.5a:

Quote

a. Player May Lift Ball to Correct Mistake Before Ball Is Played

When a player has substituted another ball for the original ball when not allowed under the Rules or the player’s ball in play was replaced, dropped or placed (1) in a wrong place or came to rest in a wrong place, (2) in a wrong way or (3) by using a procedure that did not apply:

    •    The player may lift the ball without penalty and correct the mistake.

    •    But this is allowed only before the ball is played.

My next question is why 14.5 seems to contradict the definitions I cited above. Specifically, a ball is no longer in play when another has been substituted (definition of in play), and a substituted ball is the player’s ball in play even if:

    •    It was replaced, dropped or placed in a wrong way or wrong place, or

    •    The player was required under the Rules to put the original ball back in play rather than to substitute another ball.

The definitions say the substituted ball is in play, regardless of the Rules. The Rules say to ignore the definition for the substitution (maybe a little exaggerated, but I hope you see my point). There is only one ball in play at any time, even if the substitution is done incorrectly, for the wrong reason or in the wrong place. (Except if rule 14.5 applies; then the ball in play changes back?) 

The only way I see out of this is if “substitution” requires a stroke. But the definition doesn’t indicate this. 

(Second cup of coffee infused and flowing nicely, thank you.)

Edited by Missouri Swede

Craig
What's in the :ogio: Silencer bag (on the :clicgear: cart)
Driver: :callaway: Razr Fit 10.5°  
5 Wood: :tmade: Burner  
Hybrid: :cobra: Baffler DWS 20°
Irons: :ping: G400 
Wedge: :ping: Glide 2.0 54° ES grind 
Putter: :heavyputter:  midweight CX2
:aimpoint:,  :bushnell: Tour V4

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

(edited)

I do not think so.  So long as it was believed to have gone in the water and then found it is my understanding that you must play the original ball. The original ball that is found may very well be in the hazard in a different location from where I originally dropped from or may be deemed unplayable also requiring a different drop zone from the ball that was first dropped. 

By playing the first ball dropped rather than the original ball under those circumstances sets the player up for an easier penalty shot also from the wrong location. That is why you go back to the original played when found. 

Edited by JOBS

Note: This thread is 1913 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • I looked at the video for ten seconds and immediately thought of this.   I am Vinz Clortho, Minion of Gozer. Buy my putter!
    • This video got into my youtube feed. And I watched it.  But I'm confused why not spinning in "the revealer" is important to making putts.  Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but it seems to me, your hands are holding the putter. So, it isn't going to spin when you swing it. The ball isn't that heavy so as to overpower my hands when I don't hit it dead center. If the ball was so heavy as to overpower my hands when I don't hit it dead center, than certainly it would be heavy enough to overpower the lie-angle balance, right?  Don't get me wrong. I like the demo. It's something they can show people and say "Look our putter is different." But the more I think about it the less I think this feature matters.  I have an open mind, however.  Let me know if there's really a benefit to this that I just don't understand.     
    • Welcome to the TST.  I always suggest that everyone starts a MySwing thread.  Have fun, enjoy the forum.  
    • Those are good. But they are like the Dan Marino of cookies, The Oatmeal Raisin is the Tom Brady of cookies. ... IMO ... 👍😜👍 Eh... I'll make the black and white cookie the Vinnie Testaverde of cookies. 👍👍... Once again, this is my opinion. 
    • Do you have another son-in-law that you don't really like?  The answer to your question IMO is lessons. Many others have mentioned why.  BUT...... If you son in law is abnormally tall, or abnormally short, or has super long arms or super short legs or something like that, then at least a static fitting would be wise.  Having said that, just because lessons are likely to give him more improvement than new fitted clubs, doesn't mean you shouldn't give him the gift of new fitted clubs. There will still be some benefit there, plus, going through a fitting and getting shiny new clubs is fun. ... And golf should be fun. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...