Players Who Won't Exchange Cards

[Ken Aston]

When playing in stroke play tournaments, never play with a cart companion who doesn’t want to exchange score cards. They’re cheaters.

[Shindig]

Is that even legal in a tournament?  

[leftybutnotPM]

5 hours ago, Ken Aston said:

When playing in stroke play tournaments, never play with a cart companion who doesn’t want to exchange score cards. They’re cheaters.

There has never been a "stroke play tournament"where people mark their own cards.

The card always has a space for the player and the marker to sign. 

It's not optional to play by the rules in what you call a "tournament".

 

But..... given that this is your first post you might like to elaborate.

Edited March 11, 2020 by leftybutnotPM

[Golfingdad]

15 hours ago, Shindig said:

Is that even legal in a tournament?  

I know, right?  I suppose if somebody actually refuses then you can just say "ok, dude" and trade amongst the other(s) in the group.  When the rounds over and he get's DQ'd because nobody attests his card (because they can't) he'll feel like a dumbo and hopefully stop doing that.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I know, right?  I suppose if somebody actually refuses then you can just say "ok, dude" and trade amongst the other(s) in the group.  When the rounds over and he get's DQ'd because nobody attests his card (because they can't) he'll feel like a dumbo and hopefully stop doing that.

I like that plan.

[fredf]

Yup, warning bells are clanging. Anyone I'm playing with tries such BS, I'm going to show them Rule 3.3 and explain the facts of tournament stroke play life. And I'm counting their strokes whether I'm their marker or not. And I'm going to intervene in whatever way is necessary to ensure their submitted score card is accurate. I'm also likely to be vocalising a few observations during the game along the lines of "that is unfortunate, picking up a general penalty like that, gives you a triple for the hole, right?"

Protecting the field 101, we all need to be ready to step up to that.

[David in FL]

3 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I know, right?  I suppose if somebody actually refuses then you can just say "ok, dude" and trade amongst the other(s) in the group.  When the rounds over and he get's DQ'd because nobody attests his card (because they can't) he'll feel like a dumbo and hopefully stop doing that.

Ding ding ding....

We have a winner!  

[fredf]

2 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Ding ding ding....

We have a winner!  

It's a good approach if you have all other members of the group equally committed and prepared to call a cheater out and persevere through the highly likely confrontation that will ensue. But in my experience, that is not common. The cheaters usually have a very polished, practiced technique and are effective bullies in this context - that is precisely how they survive.

When I was a very young feller, I recall playing in a pro am with a talented touring pro, he was marking the card of another player in the group, a low marker and State team player that I directly witnessed using the ol' foot wedge to move his ball from an unplayable lie on two occasions during the round. I raised this with the marker who unfortunately did not have the cojones to challenge who just said "Don't worry about it". It was an extremely formative experience.

[David in FL]

2 hours ago, fredf said:

It's a good approach if you have all other members of the group equally committed and prepared to call a cheater out and persevere through the highly likely confrontation that will ensue. But in my experience, that is not common. The cheaters usually have a very polished, practiced technique and are effective bullies in this context - that is precisely how they survive.

When I was a very young feller, I recall playing in a pro am with a talented touring pro, he was marking the card of another player in the group, a low marker and State team player that I directly witnessed using the ol' foot wedge to move his ball from an unplayable lie on two occasions during the round. I raised this with the marker who unfortunately did not have the cojones to challenge who just said "Don't worry about it". It was an extremely formative experience.

Honestly it’s not even cheating. It’s just unheard of. I’ve been playing competitive golf for 40 years and I’ve never heard of such a thing.

If it really happening somewhere, it’s a one off.

Edited March 12, 2020 by David in FL

[Vinsk]

3 minutes ago, David in FL said:

The cheaters usually have a very polished, practiced technique and are effective bullies in this context - that is precisely how they survive.

I assure you they sure as hell wouldn’t bully a group with @David in FL or me. As he said, that’s just unheard of..to me too.

This wasn’t a quote by David. Meant to quote @fredf

Edited March 12, 2020 by Vinsk

[David in FL]

10 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I assure you they sure as hell wouldn’t bully a group with @David in FL or me.

Cuz my man @Vinsk would go all Conor McGregor on his ass!  

[fredf]

I took the OP on face value that he had direct experience of someone that would not exchange cards in tournament stroke play.  I can think of no good reason why anyone would try that on.  At the very least, it contravenes Rule 3.3b.  

[leftybutnotPM]

5 hours ago, David in FL said:

Honestly it’s not even cheating. It’s just unheard of. I’ve been playing competitive golf for 40 years and I’ve never heard of such a thing.

If it really happening somewhere, it’s a one off.

Exactly. It does not happen. And if someone refuses to have their card marked, it sure as hell isn't a "tournament".

12 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I know, right?  I suppose if somebody actually refuses then you can just say "ok, dude" and trade amongst the other(s) in the group.  When the rounds over and he get's DQ'd because nobody attests his card (because they can't) he'll feel like a dumbo and hopefully stop doing that.

Yep. Many years ago I was playing with a guy who told me the wrong score a couple of times. On the 13th hole (yep, still remember where it was even though it was 40 years ago), he tried it on again by "forgetting" a couple of shots that stayed in a fairway bunker.

I said "Look you can tell me any score you like, but I'm marking your card and at the end of the round I might decide that I'm not going to sign it."

That solved the problem very rapidly.

[DaveP043]

It looks like @Ken Aston wrote that as a drive-by, he's spent about 6 minutes total as a member here, although there's another member name that's nearly identical.  Anyway, it would be nice if he'd return and provide a bit more detail as to what has actually happened to spur his initial post.

If I'm ever in that situation, I suppose what I'm going to do is my job, which is to be a marker for the player I'm assigned to.  I don't need his scorecard right off, I can use a  standard scorecard from the club.  I'll also make sure that someone is marking for me.  If there's another player in the group, its easy.  If not, I'll advise the tournament committee (or pro running the event) before I tee off as to what's going on, and make sure I know how I should proceed.  And of course, I'll keep my own score, so I can check what my marker has written down.

This is just such an odd post, I can't imagine that its actually occurred, but apparently it has.

Its interesting, there's a discussion in the Interpretations regarding a marker who knowingly certifies a wrong score (DQ by the Committee), but not for a marker who refuses to fulfill his duties.

Edited March 12, 2020 by DaveP043

[fredf]

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Its interesting, there's a discussion in the Interpretations regarding a marker who knowingly certifies a wrong score (DQ by the Committee), but not for a marker who refuses to fulfill his duties.

Yes, and I think a little more guidance could have been included. Improper or inappropriate marker behaviour can come in various stripes less 'out there' than knowingly certifying a wrong score. IMO, a sensible handling strategy is for a player to raise any concerns with the Committee for awareness and any action they consider appropriate. The Committee can then assess and, if desired, have a friendly or not so friendly chat with the marker tailored to the issues.

On the player/marker responsibilities theme, an issue that disappoints me is when players see misbehaviour but think it is only the marker's job to do something about it. The only task limited to the marker is recording/certifying the player's score, everyone is responsible for acting on/raising a rules breach and ensuring fairness to all in the field.