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12 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I have been reading reports out of India. It is really bad. Only 2% of the population vaccinated and variants running wild. 300,000+ cases a day. 

10 hours ago, StuM said:

A friend is on a ventilator today. 52 years old and he never took Covid seriously. This article hits too close to home.

edb38347fbe534588871ed240216f74e

ROYAL OAK, Mich. — At Beaumont Hospital, Royal Oak, in one of America’s worst coronavirus hot...

 

Cautionary tales. I had two Michigan friends in their 40s, both healthy, spend six days each in the hospital recently. 

Getting my second Pfizer shot tomorrow. 

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30 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I have been reading reports out of India. It is really bad. Only 2% of the population vaccinated and variants running wild. 300,000+ cases a day. 

Cautionary tales. I had two Michigan friends in their 40s, both healthy, spend six days each in the hospital recently. 

Getting my second Pfizer shot tomorrow. 

Has your stance shifted?

No Leon Letting.

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5 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I have been reading reports out of India. It is really bad. Only 2% of the population vaccinated and variants running wild. 300,000+ cases a day. 

Yes, India is bad, but you also need to look at it in terms of absolute numbers.  We have 1.3 billion people.  The numbers are huge in absolute terms, but in percentage terms they are small.  Also, vaccinating such a huge number of people is difficult.  They are rationing who is eligible for a vaccine.  It started with 60+ and frontline workers/people.  Next they moved down to 45+.  Next month they will be opening it up for 18+.  Given that the median age is 26 a huge chunk of the population hasn't been eligible for the vaccine yet.

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34 minutes ago, iacas said:

Has your stance shifted?

No Leon Letting.

No. I’ve always been of the opinion we should vaccinate as fast as possible and avoid needless risks. 
 

My issue is with the arbitrary rules that have made things difficult for my teens. For example, there were 15,000 unmasked people at the UFC event in Florida on Saturday. Meanwhile, my 13yo daughter has been quarantined for the third time since January and has to get a weekly Covid test to play 7v7 outdoor rec soccer (with a mask on). 
 

But that’s me as a father speaking. Obviously biased because I hate seeing my kids struggle. 

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16 minutes ago, pganapathy said:

Yes, India is bad, but you also need to look at it in terms of absolute numbers.  We have 1.3 billion people.  The numbers are huge in absolute terms, but in percentage terms they are small.  Also, vaccinating such a huge number of people is difficult.  They are rationing who is eligible for a vaccine.  It started with 60+ and frontline workers/people.  Next they moved down to 45+.  Next month they will be opening it up for 18+.  Given that the median age is 26 a huge chunk of the population hasn't been eligible for the vaccine yet.

2% of 1.3B << 50% of 330M

1 minute ago, Braivo said:

My issue is with the arbitrary rules that have made things difficult for my teens. For example, there were 15,000 unmasked people at the UFC event in Florida on Saturday. Meanwhile, my 13yo daughter has been quarantined for the third time since January and has to get a weekly Covid test to play 7v7 outdoor rec soccer (with a mask on). 

They’re not arbitrary, and a lot of them are seen as legally necessary to even allow your kids to play soccer.

Your beef is with several local organizations, too, not “the gubment.”

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5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Your beef is with several local organizations, too, not “the gubment.”

Correct. Local orgs. State rules. It’s a disorganized mess. I can drive 20 minutes into Ohio and they haven’t required a single athlete to get tested all year. They play without masks. Does Covid stop at the border? 
 

Anyway, get the vax. Let’s be done with all of this. 

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2 hours ago, Braivo said:

Correct. Local orgs. State rules. It’s a disorganized mess. I can drive 20 minutes into Ohio and they haven’t required a single athlete to get tested all year. They play without masks. Does Covid stop at the border? 
 

Anyway, get the vax. Let’s be done with all of this. 

Just to reiterate. There are places that are pretty much done with almost all of that.  😊


Given the current CDC guidance regarding masks/distancing even when vaccinated, and that nobody can even reasonably define what the “endzone” looks like, I wonder if some areas will ever be done with it.  

 

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2 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Just to reiterate. There are places that are pretty much done with almost all of that.  😊

You keep wearing that like it's a badge of honor, and yet… we have no idea how many lives FL's… let's go with "attitude"… has cost us. And it's not even all that accurate - many places and towns in FL had tighter restrictions and laws. And fortunately some people had more common sense than you've seemingly displayed.

3 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Given the current CDC guidance regarding masks/distancing even when vaccinated, and that nobody can even reasonably define what the “endzone” looks like, I wonder if some areas will ever be done with it.  

Oh my, yes.

They're telling people who have been vaccinated to keep wearing masks when in public places for pretty common sense, logical reasons.

They've said vaccinated people can hang out indoors with other vaccinated people, too.

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7 minutes ago, iacas said:

They're telling people who have been vaccinated to keep wearing masks when in public places for pretty common sense, logical reasons.

They've said vaccinated people can hang out indoors with other vaccinated people, too.

I am totally fine with this. 

1st, you have no clue who is vaccinated. Someone could just be posing as a vaccinated person just because those who are stopped wearing masks. 

2nd, even though more evidence is showing vaccinated people do not carry the virus, its just safe to require the masks. 

3rd, for me it just feels like the right thing to do. To be a good neighbor and not rub it in the face of those who don't want to get the vaccine or have struggled to get one so far. 

 

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18 minutes ago, David in FL said:

... that nobody can even reasonably define what the “endzone” looks like, I wonder if some areas will ever be done with it.  

 

Just because they remove the paint from the end zones in the Packers/Bears game doesn't mean the players still won't run in that direction.

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15 minutes ago, iacas said:

You keep wearing that like it's a badge of honor, and yet… we have no idea how many lives FL's stupidity has cost us. And it's not even all that accurate - many places and towns in FL had tighter restrictions and laws. And fortunately some people had more common sense than you've seemingly displayed.

 

 

I am very proud of Florida.  Many other like minded states too.

Where are those “many places and towns”?  Come on down and see.  😊

 

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

They're telling people who have been vaccinated to keep wearing masks when in public places for pretty common sense, logical reasons.

 

 

Yep.  And my question remains.  When does it end?   I know that you’re a fan of the Leon Lett analogy, but for that to work, we need to at least know where the goal line is.  Right now, that’s more of a Potter Stewart situation.  We can’t define it, but somehow we’ll know it when/if we ever see it.  

 

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

They've said vaccinated people can hang out indoors with other vaccinated people, too.

That’s mighty benevolent of them.  😂

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11 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Given the current CDC guidance regarding masks/distancing even when vaccinated, and that nobody can even reasonably define what the “endzone” looks like, I wonder if some areas will ever be done with it.  

It's over when the citizens of any given state demand that it's over. The governor of Michigan declined to add new restrictions despite having one of the worst outbreaks in the world. Why? The pressure from the citizens of Michigan was immense. Polling showed about 70% were against any further lockdowns or restrictions. It would have been a terribly unpopular move, and she didn't make it. Agree or disagree, that's what happened. (For reference she instituted very strict measures late last year when they were popular and well received, despite a far smaller outbreak.)

People in many places (FL, TX, MS, AL, WV, etc) are already "done" with it. 

Vaccines are available to anyone over age 16, and supply is plentiful in most places. People can make their own risk decisions from this point forward. 

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Your beef is with several local organizations, too, not “the gubment.”

I take issue with this type of argument. You take any critique of lockdowns or other restrictions and immediately lump me in with the uneducated anti-vax "don't tell me what to do" crowd. There's room for nuance and discussion but most people won't hear it. 

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1 minute ago, Braivo said:

It's over when the citizens of any given state demand that it's over. The governor of Michigan declined to add new restrictions despite having one of the worst outbreaks in the world. Why? The pressure from the citizens of Michigan was immense. Polling showed about 70% were against any further lockdowns or restrictions. It would have been a terribly unpopular move, and she didn't make it. Agree or disagree, that's what happened. (For reference she instituted very strict measures late last year when they were popular and well received, despite a far smaller outbreak.)

People in many places (FL, TX, MS, AL, WV, etc) are already "done" with it. 

Vaccines are available to anyone over age 16, and supply is plentiful in most places. People can make their own risk decisions from this point forward. 

 

I agree for the most part.  :beer:

 

 I was talking more about the CDC and that point, as yet undefined, where they would say “all clear”.  Without knowing that endpoint, the Leon Lett analogy just doesn’t work.  

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4 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I am very proud of Florida.  Many other like minded states too.

That makes one of you.

4 minutes ago, David in FL said:

When does it end?

A combination of:

  • Enough people vaccinated.
  • A low enough level of cases and hospitalizations.

Just because those are not black and white, crystal-clear lines doesn't mean we can just say "f*** it" and do whatever we want.

4 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I know that you’re a fan of the Leon Lett analogy, but for that to work, we need to at least know where the goal line is.

The goal line is becoming clearer. The analogy still works.

3 minutes ago, Braivo said:

It's over when the citizens of any given state demand that it's over.

No, it's not. That's not how society works. That's not how leadership, or science, any of this stuff works.

3 minutes ago, Braivo said:

It would have been a terribly unpopular move, and she didn't make it.

That doesn't mean it was the "right" move, either. How many lives did she cost to save her political life?

3 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Vaccines are available to anyone over age 16, and supply is plentiful in most places. People can make their own risk decisions from this point forward.

You keep saying this bullshit about how "people can make their own risk decisions" but it's been shown to you several times just what bullshit that is.

It's not that f***ing hard.

  • Wear a mask when you're around people who haven't been vaccinated.
  • Get vaccinated yourself as soon as you're able to.

Biden has said that his goal is to be at herd immunity levels by July 4.

That's not all that far away, and by all counts, we're exceeding expectations for vaccinations, so we should be there sooner.

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7 minutes ago, Braivo said:

It's over when the citizens of any given state demand that it's over. The governor of Michigan declined to add new restrictions despite having one of the worst outbreaks in the world. Why? The pressure from the citizens of Michigan was immense. Polling showed about 70% were against any further lockdowns or restrictions. It would have been a terribly unpopular move, and she didn't make it. Agree or disagree, that's what happened. (For reference she instituted very strict measures late last year when they were popular and well received, despite a far smaller outbreak.)

Which is sad, because the populous definitely don't know when it should end. They are just voicing out their frustration. I for one and glad the Ohio Governor decided to stand firm in the face of opposition. 

8 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Vaccines are available to anyone over age 16, and supply is plentiful in most places. People can make their own risk decisions from this point forward. 

They are not making true risk analysis. They are adding in emotions, political stances, and online garbage to their process. If people were doing true risk analysis, everyone would get the vaccine outside of those with known medical conditions who should talk to their doctor about it first. The percentage of people who say they will not get the vaccine is absurdly high for risk versus benefit of getting the vaccine. In the end, it's just being selfish. 

10 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I take issue with this type of argument. You take any critique of lockdowns or other restrictions and immediately lump me in with the uneducated anti-vax "don't tell me what to do" crowd. There's room for nuance and discussion but most people won't hear it. 

There isn't much nuance to be had. What nuance is there? The only arguments I hear are people who spout about civil liberties, yada yada. You know, just do the right fricken thing, it's not that hard to do. 99% of the people I heard that won't take the vaccine are those who are just being anti-establishment. 

1. blood clots from the JJ is extremely rare. 
2. extreme side effects from the vaccine is extremely rare.
3. the vaccine is not putting a chip in your arm for government tracking.
4. the vaccine is amazingly effective. 
5. the vaccine looks to keep you immune from catching it, just not suppressing symptoms. 
6. getting the vaccine will help end all of this sooner and guess what, we can open things up again. YAY!!! 

 

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2 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, it's not. That's not how society works. That's not how leadership, or science, any of this stuff works.

That's exactly how it works because that's how it's actually happening. That's reality. All of the other stuff exists in some other realm, because right now the governor of Michigan has refused to institute new restrictions because the people have demanded it to be that way. Right or wrong, that is fact. 

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

You keep saying this bullshit about how "people can make their own risk decisions" but it's been shown to you several times just what bullshit that is.

It's not that f***ing hard.

  • Wear a mask when you're around people who haven't been vaccinated.
  • Get vaccinated yourself as soon as you're able to.

I agree with your two bullet points, seems unnecessary to curse at me over it. Like my point above, no matter what the governor or the CDC says, people will behave according to their own risk tolerances. For example, they basically turned our local prom into an outdoor kids carnival. Many families have decided to hold their own "private" prom unaffiliated with the school. Those families that attend are making their own decisions based on their own risk tolerance. Some will choose to stay home. Fine either way. 

I know people who have been visiting freely with their parents and grandparents for a year, and others who are just now seeing them, with masks on, despite being fully vaccinated. People are doing their own thing. 

3 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Which is sad, because the populous definitely don't know when it should end.

So people are too stupid to think for themselves? Your tone is quite condescending towards the average person. 

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

They are not making true risk analysis. They are adding in emotions, political stances, and online garbage to their process.

You are quite naïve if you think politicians and "leaders" aren't susceptible to the same biases. 

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7 minutes ago, Braivo said:

So people are too stupid to think for themselves? Your tone is quite condescending towards the average person. 

When it comes to viruses yes they are. They have no background in virology. My comment is correct, they have no clue when it should end. The evidence is playing out, they wanted it to end WAY before it should have. It was a few weeks in and people were complaining. In the end, people don't reach out to the experts for information, but make decisions based on their own knowledge and experiences, which turned out to be wrong. 

9 minutes ago, Braivo said:

You are quite naïve if you think politicians and "leaders" aren't susceptible to the same biases. 

I never said they didn't. Most of our elected officials are really not the brightest in our communities. They are just the ones who get elected. There is a reason why they reach out to medical professionals for their expertise. At least the Ohio Governor did. 

Then the populous of Ohio decided to send her death threats and she resigned. The governor still stayed the course by having some level of restrictions and mandates. 

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2 hours ago, Braivo said:

That's exactly how it works because that's how it's actually happening.

No, no, no. And you can say "that's reality" but you're wrong each time you say it. People have been calling for the end of restrictions for quite some time. Weekly votes aren't taken to determine policy. It's unfortunate when decisions are made based on what's "popular," and not what's right or what the science or data tell us.

And we're talking about more than Michigan, man.

2 hours ago, Braivo said:

I agree with your two bullet points, seems unnecessary to curse at me over it.

I wasn't cursing at you. The first paragraph was in response to your post, the stuff after that is "in general." Please don't assume. I'm aware of the fact that you got your vaccine, so why would you think my statement there including the bullet points was directed at you? Don't assume, please.

2 hours ago, Braivo said:

Those families that attend are making their own decisions based on their own risk tolerance.

Again, this has been explained to you a few times. It does not affect only that one person's "risk tolerance." That's not how society works. That's not how viruses works.

2 hours ago, Braivo said:

I know people who have been visiting freely with their parents and grandparents for a year, and others who are just now seeing them, with masks on, despite being fully vaccinated. People are doing their own thing.

So we're in the "anecdotes" part of the discussion now? Cool.

I know people whose parents or aunts or friends have died of COVID despite them doing nothing wrong, and being as safe as they could be, because others made a "risk tolerance" assessment that didn't include the risks to which they were subjecting others.

As in people, aged 42 to 85, are literally dead because of this. But please, tell me again — right after you talk about how viruses don't respect state lines — how viruses respect the "risk tolerance" of each individual.

2 hours ago, Braivo said:

So people are too stupid to think for themselves? Your tone is quite condescending towards the average person.

Now I am talking to you: there is no tone in a text post on the Internet. Any tone you read is tone YOU yourself add to the post. So just stop.

And yeah, the average person isn't all that smart. Not about this stuff. Hell, we have a large portion of a certain subset of the population dead set against even getting the vaccine. People are also selfish.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

When it comes to viruses yes they are.

Science in general.

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