Which is Low Net in this Circumstance?

[dumbbunny]

We have four tee boxes-

1. Black (tips)
2. Gold
3. Silver
4. Copper

There are two combo tees-

5. Players. consists of Gold and Silver tees
6. Senior Players consist of Silver and Copper tees

In my mens group, some play the Senior Player combo and some play the Coppers. A foursome team might have one golfer playing the Senior Players and three golfers playing the Coopers.

Now this is where it gets complicated (for me). The 10th hole is a par 5 from Silver (course par is 71) or par 4 from Copper (course par is 70).

Let's say a golfer on Team Silver gets a par (5 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 4. Now let's say a golfer on Team Copper gets a par (4 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 3.

My question is - Who gets awarded low net on Hole 10 (at the pay-out at the end of the round)? Both parred but one has a 4 and the other has a 3.

Edited April 29, 2020 by iacas
cleaned up HTML

[ncates00]

16 minutes ago, dumbbunny said:

We have four tee boxes-

1. Black (tips)

2. Gold

3. Silver

4. Copper.

There are two combo tees-

 5. Players. consists of Gold and Silver tees

6. Senior Players consist of Silver and Copper tees

In my mens group, some play the Senior Player combo and some play the Coppers. A foursome team might have one golfer playing the Senior Players and three golfers playing the Coopers.

Now this is where it gets complicated (for me). The 10th hole is a par 5 from Silver (course par is 71) or par 4 from Copper (course par is 70).

Let's say a golfer on Team Silver gets a par (5 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 4. Now let's say a golfer on Team Copper gets a par (4 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 3.

My question is - Who gets awarded low net on Hole 10 (at the pay-out at the end of the round)? Both parred but one has a 4 and the other has a 3.

What is the hole handicap for the respective tees?

[dumbbunny]

5 hours ago, ncates00 said:

What is the hole handicap for the respective tees?

Sorry for the delayed reply, I just finished a round with the men's group.

The hole handicap is the same for all tees (for men) - 16. 

[SteveH]

Sounds like a tie to me as they are both net birdie from their respective tees

[David in FL]

4 hours ago, SteveH said:

Sounds like a tie to me as they are both net birdie from their respective tees

^^^ This ^^^

[klineka]

9 hours ago, dumbbunny said:

Let's say a golfer on Team Silver gets a par (5 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 4. Now let's say a golfer on Team Copper gets a par (4 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 3.

When I read this I knew I had read it somewhere else earlier today 

But I'm not really sure what the correct answer is. I would guess that it's a tie since their score relative to par is the same, but if those tee boxes are relatively close together and I was playing from the Copper tees, I'd be upset that it was a tie because regardless of par, a 4 net 3 on a 450 yd hole is more impressive than a 5 net 4 on a 470 yard hole. But then the obvious response to that is everyone should just play the same tees and over time the handicaps would adjust to make it fair. 

But I am curious, what are the yardages from the silver and copper tees on that hole? I'd imagine it would have to be a fairly substantial difference since it remains the 16 hcp hole for all tee boxes.

 

[Club Rat]

9 hours ago, dumbbunny said:

Both parred but one has a 4 and the other has a 3.

Net 3 beats a Net 4
Regardless of the Hole Par being different for course setup.
Example: Men versus Women, hole handicaps are always different.
A par 4 on a hole may be #10 Hdcp for Men while it's the #1 Hdcp hole for Women
They both score Gross 4, but the Woman would have a Net 3

Different Pars for a same hole are not that uncommon.
Since the hole you mention plays as a par 4 from certain tees and a par 5 at the other tees.

10 hours ago, dumbbunny said:

The 10th hole is a par 5 from Silver (course par is 71) or par 4 from Copper (course par is 70).

 par 5 (Silver) - Par 4 (Copper)
 

10 hours ago, dumbbunny said:

Let's say a golfer on Team Silver gets a par (5 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 4. Now let's say a golfer on Team Copper gets a par (4 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 3.

 

[dumbbunny]

59 minutes ago, klineka said:

When I read this I knew I had read it somewhere else earlier today 

But I'm not really sure what the correct answer is. I would guess that it's a tie since their score relative to par is the same, but if those tee boxes are relatively close together and I was playing from the Copper tees, I'd be upset that it was a tie because regardless of par, a 4 net 3 on a 450 yd hole is more impressive than a 5 net 4 on a 470 yard hole. But then the obvious response to that is everyone should just play the same tees and over time the handicaps would adjust to make it fair. 

But I am curious, what are the yardages from the silver and copper tees on that hole? I'd imagine it would have to be a fairly substantial difference since it remains the 16 hcp hole for all tee boxes.

 

Silver tee is 449. Copper tee is 415.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, dumbbunny said:

Silver tee is 449. Copper tee is 415.

They should probably both be par fours.

[dumbbunny]

The Oregon Golf Association came to our course (Salishan) with all their measuring devices and algorithms for the changeover to the World Handicap System. They said the yardage for the Copper tee on 10 (415 yds) was to short to be a par five. So they changed it. Here is the results of their measurements and hole-by-hole scoring in GHIN-

Revised Handicap chart - Google Sheets

---

Sheet1

 

[dagolfer18]

Hmmm...my initial thought is that whoever had the net 3 wins the hole, but because both scenarios result in net birdies because of different pars, it’s hard to say. I’m gonna go with my gut feeling. Net 3 guy wins.

[bkuehn1952]

According to the USGA Match Play rules, the lower net score wins the hole in a match.  There is no reference to "par".

It appears your group is playing "net skins" and I do not believe there are any USGA Rules for skins games. If your group wants to award net skins based on the score's relation to par, then in your example it is a tie.  If you go with the Match Play model, then the lowest net score wins and the person who made net 3 wins.

If the process was not decided ahead of time, then I would use the King Solomon approach.  Award a single net skin to the two individuals and let them split it.  If everyone is unhappy about that approach, then it is likely the correct thing to do. 😉

[dumbbunny]

51 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

According to the USGA Match Play rules, the lower net score wins the hole in a match.  There is no reference to "par".

It appears your group is playing "net skins" and I do not believe there are any USGA Rules for skins games. If your group wants to award net skins based on the score's relation to par, then in your example it is a tie.  If you go with the Match Play model, then the lowest net score wins and the person who made net 3 wins.

If the process was not decided ahead of time, then I would use the King Solomon approach.  Award a single net skin to the two individuals and let them split it.  If everyone is unhappy about that approach, then it is likely the correct thing to do. 😉

Considering all the responses in the two forums I posted this question to, your response is the most helpful. Thanks to all who took the time to help me.

See you on the tee box.

[Club Rat]

1 hour ago, dumbbunny said:

Thanks to all who took the time to help me.

To settle matters for your participants going forward, a decision should be made to clarify your game with this particular hole.
Make a ruling that the hole will will played in the game as a Par 4 or Par 5 by all players regardless what the score card indicates.
Either as the Manager of the game, or ask your pro or take a vote by the players for this rule for your game.
Keep in mind, the final score will still be entered by all players to their Ghin as per usual.
 

[iacas]

16 hours ago, dumbbunny said:

The Oregon Golf Association came to our course (Salishan) with all their measuring devices and algorithms for the changeover to the World Handicap System. They said the yardage for the Copper tee on 10 (415 yds) was to short to be a par five. So they changed it. Here is the results of their measurements and hole-by-hole scoring in GHIN-

Revised Handicap chart - Google Sheets

---

Sheet1

 

I'm saying that BOTH tees are too short to be a par five. They should both be par fours.

I'm a course rating captain. You'd have to have some pretty unique situations to have a 445-yard par five.

As for "hole difficulty" that is not how stroke indexes are determined, really. Read up here:

 

I see nothing about hole 10 that should make it a par five. The hole actually goes from 54 feet at the back tees to 13 feet at the green - downhill 41 feet.

https://www.salishan.com/edit/pdf/Golf-Scorecard.pdf