Race and Inclusion in America and Beyond

[mdl]

White People Should Be Feeling Miserable - The Atlantic

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I want white people to stop killing us. I also want white people to stop...

 

[saevel25]

14 minutes ago, mdl said:

White People Should Be Feeling Miserable - The Atlantic

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I want white people to stop killing us. I also want white people to stop...

 

I want to make this point. In no way should white people be stuck in mental state of shame. They should feel empathy for their fellow human being being treated Floyd. They should feel empathy for the black community who have to suffer through a system that has disenfranchised them. They should feel motivated to do something about it. In my opinion shame is an useless feeling. Shame does not rally people do do anything. If you dig down into shame, it does nothing but keep people stuck where they are. Black people were trained to be ashamed of their heritage and their skin color. Parents have used shame as a way to control their kids. These kids become despondent. The white people who feel shame will do nothing but sit and wallow in their own self hatred with out improvement. Yes, the initial feeling could be shame, but it needs to be a fleeting moment that sets off alarms that the person needs to do something productive. 

[iacas]

I'm coming around on the idea of a drastic reduction in police forces.

I have not vetted the stats, etc. in that series of Tweets, but I read the series of tweets. I do know the one tweet about the budgets is very misleading due to the source of some of the expenditures. I think Columbus, OH's education budget is close to $2B, for example.

(OT: She's been pulled over 10 times in 30 years of driving? I haven't even been pulled over… four times in 26 years.)

[saevel25]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I have not vetted the stats, etc. in that series of Tweets, but I read the series of tweets. I do know the one tweet about the budgets is very misleading due to the source of some of the expenditures. I think Columbus, OH's education budget is close to $2B, for example.

(OT: She's been pulled over 10 times in 30 years of driving? I haven't even been pulled over… four times in 26 years.)

The more I think about it, the more I am leaning towards a police downsizing. I do think that a police force of some level needs to exist. For example, I do not know how developing a more robust social services system can help when it comes to investigating violent crime. 

There seems to be enough stats to show that a lot of crime is linked to social economic status. 

http://www.cjcj.org/uploads/cjcj/documents/Does_age.pdf

Quote

The findings of this preliminary analysis suggest that high arrest and homicide rates found among California's young age groups, and also among Hispanics and African Americans into late middle age, are due much less to age or race per se than to high poverty rates adhering to age and race. Poverty level also is strongly linked to higher arrest and murder rates among older age groups.

If the communities were supported and allowed to flourish then that should improve the crime rates. I do see the need to make take the pressure off the police to be the only point of contact with the social needs of the community. 

I can also see this becoming a bloody mess in the inner cities with hyper violent neighborhoods. I am not sure of the entire scope of what happened in Baltimore, but I remember them pulling the police presence out of west Baltimore. In the end, the murder rates in that area skyrocketed. So, there needs to be some ownership at the community level to get on board and not just take advantage of this situation. 

[iacas]

@saevel25 I'm very early into this, but I think you can greatly diminish police forces, and even get rid of them altogether in some situations where you can have private policing. I don't mean individuals hire their own police, I mean just privatized, like FedEx/UPS for mail. The city could hire a private company to provide policing. It might create competition so that police forces would have to compete for contracts, etc.

That is a whole other can of worms, but really, there's no competition right now. Sure you can elect a new sheriff, sometimes, I guess. But that's about it, no?

[mcanadiens]

The phrase "defund the police" comes off sounding a little extreme. I've read different peoples' ideas for what this might look like and they range from very plausible to completely insane. I do think there is definitely some room for cities to reallocate some funds, de-emphasize some of the tactics and adjust their priorities.

While federal and state grants muddy the waters, Police Departments are operated by cities and those city leaders are responsible for them. Where ever you may live, make sure your local government is being responsible to its citizens.

 

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

That is a whole other can of worms, but really, there's no competition right now. Sure you can elect a new sheriff, sometimes, I guess. But that's about it, no?

Yea, for the most part there is no competitive mechanism for the police. Even then, I am not a fan of electing judges or police officers to positions. There are stories of judges telling voters that they will dismiss traffic tickets or what not to get votes. 

[boogielicious]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

In the interest of trying to see as many sides and viewpoints of this as possible, I watched this last night.

No comment on it, except to post it if others wish to watch.

My wife and I watched it. Very compelling.

[Double Mocha Man]

I just read this this morning.  Seems like it's working in New Jersey.  At least this might be a good model going forward.  https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

[billchao]

2 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

I just read this this morning.  Seems like it's working in New Jersey.  At least this might be a good model going forward.  https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

That article doesn’t exactly tell the whole story. Camden is a surveillance state. There are cameras everywhere. They were installed before the police force was disbanded and then expanded after.

The Surveillance City of Camden, New Jersey - The Atlantic

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A community beset by crime, and the intrusive tools they're using in hopes of stopping it.

 

Camden expanding surveillance cameras

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City to add 90 cameras to street network

https://www.cnn.com/2015/06/27/politics/camden-police-technology/index.html

I haven’t watched this since it first came out, but I remember it being a good episode:

 

[Double Mocha Man]

Perhaps more cameras is a by-product of fewer police.  This might be one of those "Be careful what you wish for." things.

[billchao]

25 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Perhaps more cameras is a by-product of fewer police.  This might be one of those "Be careful what you wish for." things.

I don’t know. Again, the cameras were first installed under the old police force. I don’t know that there are fewer police there now.

I’m just trying to point out that the article you linked doesn’t tell the whole story. It makes it seem like replacing the police force and reaching out to the neighborhood dramatically reduced crime on its own, when the reality is the surveillance technology has a lot to do with it, too.

[Double Mocha Man]

6 minutes ago, billchao said:

I don’t know. Again, the cameras were first installed under the old police force. I don’t know that there are fewer police there now.

I’m just trying to point out that the article you linked doesn’t tell the whole story. It makes it seem like replacing the police force and reaching out to the neighborhood dramatically reduced crime on its own, when the reality is the surveillance technology has a lot to do with it, too.

Agreed.  But the article did point out some of the downsides.  Thank you for pointing out an issue the article did not confront.  But you know, you probably cannot walk to the first tee these days without being on camera.  Have you looked around the eaves of your clubhouse or starter's shack?  It is sad how much we are filmed... but it does help catch and convict criminals more so than in the past.  I sure hope nobody watching the footage laughs when I duck hook off #1.

[QuadrupleBogey]

On 6/6/2020 at 3:09 PM, Papa Steve 55 said:

Your brave for starting this, hope it goes well.

Its made me do a lot of soul searching. We have black memebers here. I dont care, not an issue for me at all. Other members do not feel the same and would make slightly off or overt comments. It bothered me but I figured I'm not a racist so I'm not part of the problem. I would let the commenets slide. Probaly felt that way since I bacame aware of race. Now I realize I was wrong. My silence was/is part of the problem. I dont know yet how I'm going to handle it. Maybe lose some friends. But I wont be silent anymore.

...are you trolling him or something? There's nothing "Brave" about it, as it's pretty much the hottest and most popular topic in the western world right now. In fact, NOT to talk about it would be racist. 

Anyway.. I am a mixed race individual, and I'm frankly unhappy with the way the discussions have been unfolding. We have a dozen dead POC's due to the rioting, and literally no one in politics or the media will acknowledge it. Floyd was murdered, yes, but he was not a saint and as a POC I don't appreciate anlgo-Americans holding him up as a symbol (because it's convenient for them), while ignoring the multitude of other victims. Anglo mayors are asking police to stand down while black on black violence rages. 

And I guess i appreciate your thoughts on the matter, but grandstanding with the whole "I know better now" stuff really doesn't amount to much. If you dont live the life, you can't understand. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by QuadrupleBogey

[mdl]

Best argument I've seen is the fact that the vast majority of emergency calls are for things that don't need armed response. So sure, you keep detectives, but if 90% of emergency requests are better handled by medical, mental health, and social services, then you can reduce beat cops by 90%.

[QuadrupleBogey]

Just now, mdl said:

Best argument I've seen is the fact that the vast majority of emergency calls are for things that don't need armed response. So sure, you keep detectives, but if 90% of emergency requests are better handled by medical, mental health, and social services, then you can reduce beat cops by 90%.

Better yet, disarm the cops. They do it in Europe. works fine. They maybe use their gun 3 times in a career, so why carry it all day? Do you see firefighters walking around with hoses and axes looking for fires? Nope.

[mdl]

6 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I want to make this point. In no way should white people be stuck in mental state of shame. They should feel empathy for their fellow human being being treated Floyd. They should feel empathy for the black community who have to suffer through a system that has disenfranchised them. They should feel motivated to do something about it. In my opinion shame is an useless feeling. Shame does not rally people do do anything. If you dig down into shame, it does nothing but keep people stuck where they are. Black people were trained to be ashamed of their heritage and their skin color. Parents have used shame as a way to control their kids. These kids become despondent. The white people who feel shame will do nothing but sit and wallow in their own self hatred with out improvement. Yes, the initial feeling could be shame, but it needs to be a fleeting moment that sets off alarms that the person needs to do something productive. 

I think the point is white people should think about why they might read that article and read shame. That word is never used. The article explicitly calls out the uselessness of wallowing and performative guilt. The call is to feel miserable. Not vaguely bad. But the same as you would if society started treating people with your last name like black people are currently treated. The kind of feeling that would drive you to action.

6 minutes ago, QuadrupleBogey said:

Better yet, disarm the cops. They do it in Europe. works fine. They maybe use their gun 3 times in a career, so why carry it all day? Do you see firefighters walking around with hoses and axes looking for fires? Nope.

1000%. I've been arguing for taking cops' guns away forever. Also, the bar for criminally charging cops for murder or assault should be the same as for everyone else. As in, if a cop hits someone with a baton, smart money is they're doing 10 years for assault with a deadly weapon, same as everyone else.

Edited June 10, 2020 by mdl

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, mdl said:

I think the point is white people should think about why they might read that article and read shame. That word is never used. The article explicitly calls out the uselessness of wallowing and performative guilt. The call is to feel miserable. Not vaguely bad. But the same as you would is the society started treating people with your last name like black people are currently treated. The kind of feeling that would drive you to action.

Because the article mentions they must feel miserable. There are two avenues for misery. Outward and inward. Outward being empathy for others, inward being shame. Shame serves no purpose. That is my point. So I guess the article and myself agree on that. I missed her point about wallowing and performative guilt. There is no meaning behind me reading shame other than I feel strongly that shame is a useless feeling.