Different Par/Different Tee

[dennyjones]

How unusual is a course that has a different par for different sets of tees?  See attachment.    Of the 78 courses I've played in the last 4 years, this is the only one that is unique.   

[dagolfer18]

It’s not as unusual as you think. I can think of no less than four courses within a half hour drive of my house that do this. For example, my home course is a par 72 from all tees except the reds, which make it a par 73. Same at a local country club. There’s a par 71 near me that’s a par 72 for women. Another course I’ve heard of near me is a 70 for men, 72 for women and seniors. It may not be a different par for each tee, but it’s the same sort of idea.

Edited July 26, 2020 by dagolfer18

[bwdial]

I've seen a few courses that have this sort of set up, but that one seems a bit excessive. 

[bkuehn1952]

Sugarbush is unique in my experience.  As other have said, it is not unusual for the par to vary between "Men" and "Women" tees.  I do not recall a course with two different pars for men but I am sure there are a few.  Five different pars is another story entirely. 

Do you know if this has always been that way?  The USGA generally desires par to be "standardized" so even though a set of tees falls outside the guidelines shown below, they recommend par be consistent for each gender.  For example, on a hole the men's tees are 355 to 300 yards in length except for the most forward men's tee at 230 yards.  Because of a large pond in front of the green, the typical player using the most forward tee plays the hole as a 2-shot hole (and of course, 2 putts).  The USGA recommends all the men's tees be listed as a par 4 even though the forward tee falls into the Par 3 range.

 

                            MEN                              WOMEN

Par 3	Up to 250 yards	Up to 210 yards
Par 4	251 to 470 yards	211 to 400 yards
Par 5	471 to 690 yards	401 to 575 yards

[DaveP043]

11 hours ago, dennyjones said:

How unusual is a course that has a different par for different sets of tees?  See attachment.    Of the 78 courses I've played in the last 4 years, this is the only one that is unique.   

When the WHS rules went into effect in January, it seemed that a number of state associations made an automatic adjustment to the par form each tee, based on the recommended par/yardage relationship for each hole.  That automatic adjustment led to pars for different tees like the table shows.  In most cases, each individual course evaluated their own course, trying to make par the same on each hole for all tees whenever it was reasonable, and provided the results to the State Association, who in turn updated the USGA database.  

This procedure is outlined in Appendix F to the Handicap Rules

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

It makes me wonder if this specific course hasn't done that internal evaluation, or if the other steps in the process haven't taken place yet.

 

[TourSpoon]

Slightly off topic here but I think I need to get some Sugarbush Golf Club swag. 

On topic I played a course the other day that had a par 5/4 on it depending on the tees you played. Its a shortish par 5 playing from 484 down to 350. We played it from 475 as a par 5 and I had an easy par but now thinking about it I would have played it differently if it were a par 4. 

[iacas]

Read Dave’s post. There’s your answer.

[Shindig]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

When the WHS rules went into effect in January, it seemed that a number of state associations made an automatic adjustment to the par form each tee, based on the recommended par/yardage relationship for each hole.  That automatic adjustment led to pars for different tees like the table shows.  In most cases, each individual course evaluated their own course, trying to make par the same on each hole for all tees whenever it was reasonable, and provided the results to the State Association, who in turn updated the USGA database.  

This procedure is outlined in Appendix F to the Handicap Rules

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

It makes me wonder if this specific course hasn't done that internal evaluation, or if the other steps in the process haven't taken place yet.

 

There's a course I play periodically whose online scorecard hasn't updated this yet.  I hope they do.  On four of the long par-4s, the forward tees aren't much ahead of the rest of them, and near the bottom of the scorecard is marked "women's par."  It's a par 72 (according to "men's par") and a par 76 on the other line.  I'm glad to read what you wrote, because it sounds like the USGA is encouraging courses to fix this nonsense.  

[DaveP043]

7 hours ago, Shindig said:

There's a course I play periodically whose online scorecard hasn't updated this yet.  I hope they do.  On four of the long par-4s, the forward tees aren't much ahead of the rest of them, and near the bottom of the scorecard is marked "women's par."  It's a par 72 (according to "men's par") and a par 76 on the other line.  I'm glad to read what you wrote, because it sounds like the USGA is encouraging courses to fix this nonsense.  

It may be appropriate in some cases to have different pars.  Some of the 2017 Newport Cup players may remember 18 at Mid South.  Its a reasonably demanding par-4 from the men's tees, White or Blue.  But from the red tees, the fairway comes to an end, leaving women a shot of no less that 160 yards from a downhill lie, all carry over water to the green. It makes sense to call that a par-5 for women, but a par-4 for men.  Its a bit of a tweener, and Erik might have a different opinion as he knows a lot more about course rating than I do, but I can understand it. 

8 hours ago, iacas said:

Read Dave’s post. There’s your answer.

Erik and I had a lot of back and forth privately around the first of the year on just this subject.  I know it took a while to get things straightened out.  Its worth asking the pro shop about it next time, they may need to prod the local Association to get things corrected.

Edited July 26, 2020 by DaveP043

[iacas]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

It may be appropriate in some cases to have different pars.  Some of the 2017 Newport Cup players may remember 18 at Mid South.  Its a reasonably demanding par-4 from the men's tees, White or Blue.  But from the red tees, the fairway comes to an end, leaving women a shot of no less that 160 yards from a downhill lie, all carry over water to the green. It makes sense to call that a par-5 for women, but a par-4 for men.  Its a bit of a tweener, and Erik might have a different opinion as he knows a lot more about course rating than I do, but I can understand it. 

Yeah, if there are forced layups, a hole can measure as long as a par four and play as a par five.

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Erik and I had a lot of back and forth privately around the first of the year on just this subject.  I know it took a while to get things straightened out.  Its worth asking the pro shop about it next time, they may need to prod the local Association to get things corrected.

Yeah, this looks like they just applied the rating formula to figure out the "pars" for each hole, which was done automatically, and the course hasn't yet submitted to change it.

Is the course still active within their allied golf association? If they aren't active, their rating might still be valid, but the rest might not be updated.

[Shindig]

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

It may be appropriate in some cases to have different pars.  Some of the 2017 Newport Cup players may remember 18 at Mid South.  Its a reasonably demanding par-4 from the men's tees, White or Blue.  But from the red tees, the fairway comes to an end, leaving women a shot of no less that 160 yards from a downhill lie, all carry over water to the green. It makes sense to call that a par-5 for women, but a par-4 for men.  Its a bit of a tweener, and Erik might have a different opinion as he knows a lot more about course rating than I do, but I can understand it. 

True, and good point.  My mother would need to tee up her driver to have a chance to carry that.  I might pull a 5-iron or 4hybrid. 

The course I'm thinking of though has nothing like that.  Some of the long par 4s don't even have sand.

But you're right, and thanks for explaining.

[dennyjones]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

Is the course still active within their allied golf association? If they aren't active, their rating might still be valid, but the rest might not be updated.

I'm guessing they are, the OP was a screen shot from the USGA database.   I've only played the course twice this year.