Gimmes

[measureoffsetinnm]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

• To beat an opponent.
• Exercise.
• Fun/enjoyment.
• Thrill of seeing the ball fly.
• Etc.

Golf can have many goals.

These are goals of engaging in golf as an activity but not purely of the game itself.

10 hours ago, iacas said:

And a ball is lost even though it’s found after three minutes, even though it’s not “lost.”

It would be more accurate to say it is "not found within the stipulated amount of time" than lost I agree.

10 hours ago, iacas said:

When the very rules of the game allow for a ball not to be holed, maybe rethink what boggles the mind? 🙂

They allow for the ball to not be holed in match play but the ball being holed is still the implicit end result of that action. I am all for people making golf what they want it to be of course but I had the impression that handicap is meant to be a serious number that reflects overall strength of golfer in stroke play and holing out is the norm in stroke play competitions.

 

Edit: forgot to quote the part about safety but really I think we could dedicate a whole thread of its own to discussing football and its rules 😄 

Edited May 25, 2021 by measureoffsetinnm

[iacas]

1 hour ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

These are goals of engaging in golf as an activity but not purely of the game itself.

Again, the Rules don't even require you to hole out to play the game, so no, you're off your rocker here.

1 hour ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

It would be more accurate to say it is "not found within the stipulated amount of time" than lost I agree.

No, by definition.

1 hour ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

They allow for the ball to not be holed in match play but the ball being holed is still the implicit end result of that action.

Huh? No. You don't have to hole out, nor is there an "implicit end result" of an action. You can incur a "loss of hole" penalty without even hitting a single shot on the hole (nor your opponent).

1 hour ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

I am all for people making golf what they want it to be of course but I had the impression that handicap is meant to be a serious number that reflects overall strength of golfer in stroke play and holing out is the norm in stroke play competitions.

Please tell me how picking up a 3" putt in a non-competitive stroke play round that counts toward your handicap changes that "serious number" at all, particularly when weighing it against the idea of pace of play.

Furthermore, please know that the Rules of Golf and Handicapping let you skip holes and take par + handicap, or do the same for holes not played under the Rules of Golf. Etc.

Your "boggles the mind" stuff shouldn't - it's contemplated and handled in the Rules of Golf and Handicapping.

I don't hole out every time. I picked up a two-inch putt today. What are the odds I'd have missed it? 0.00000%. And because I can't be penalized for accidentally moving the ball, or tapping in with the flagstick still in the hole, the score I took was the score I'd have gotten 100.0000% of the time, short of having an aneurysm or a stroke or fainting mid-stroke or something.

That picked-up putt saved me having to bend over and pick it up out of the hole.

[measureoffsetinnm]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

Again, the Rules don't even require you to hole out to play the game, so no, you're off your rocker here.

Why are golf courses composed of individual segments called "holes" then? The Rules can say what they want about certain situations but that doesn't alter what is understood as the fundamental gameplay objective.

4 hours ago, iacas said:

No, by definition

What do you mean? The ball is called "lost" but what is really meant is that the player was unable to locate it within the amount of time stipulated by the rules.

4 hours ago, iacas said:

Huh? No. You don't have to hole out, nor is there an "implicit end result" of an action. You can incur a "loss of hole" penalty without even hitting a single shot on the hole (nor your opponent).

Sorry that was unclear phrasing. What I meant is that even if someone can win a match play hole without holing out getting the ball in the hole is still their implicit goal. You give someone a putt and they get their current number of strokes + 1 as if they had taken the putt and sank it. If the point is not to get the ball in the hole why are you adding a stroke to their score?

Edited May 26, 2021 by measureoffsetinnm

[measureoffsetinnm]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

Please tell me how picking up a 3" putt in a non-competitive stroke play round that counts toward your handicap changes that "serious number" at all, particularly when weighing it against the idea of pace of play.

Furthermore, please know that the Rules of Golf and Handicapping let you skip holes and take par + handicap, or do the same for holes not played under the Rules of Golf. Etc.

Your "boggles the mind" stuff shouldn't - it's contemplated and handled in the Rules of Golf and Handicapping.

I don't hole out every time. I picked up a two-inch putt today. What are the odds I'd have missed it? 0.00000%. And because I can't be penalized for accidentally moving the ball, or tapping in with the flagstick still in the hole, the score I took was the score I'd have gotten 100.0000% of the time, short of having an aneurysm or a stroke or fainting mid-stroke or something.

That picked-up putt saved me having to bend over and pick it up out of the hole.

Oh I get the logic now. People who are going to cheat their handicap are going to cheat their handicap regardless so might as well set up the rules so people like yourself who will honestly follow them and estimate probabilities don't have to feel guilty not holing out if they don't want to for whatever reason. I don't think that really changes what the core objective of golf is but it does make more sense than it did so thank you for taking the time to explain it from your perspective. I think you should not view picking the ball out of the hole as something to be avoided however since it is a good opportunity for single leg hip flexor exercise.

[boogielicious]

4 hours ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

Oh I get the logic now. People who are going to cheat their handicap are going to cheat their handicap regardless so might as well set up the rules so people like yourself who will honestly follow them and estimate probabilities don't have to feel guilty not holing out if they don't want to for whatever reason. I don't think that really changes what the core objective of golf is but it does make more sense than it did so thank you for taking the time to explain it from your perspective. I think you should not view picking the ball out of the hole as something to be avoided however since it is a good opportunity for single leg hip flexor exercise.

Now you are just being silly. I play by the rules. If I’m playing with people I don’t know, would are out playing for fun, and they want to give each other gimmes, I’m fine with that. I still hole out. When I play with my wife and our other friends, we hole out. 

When I’m playing my friends in match play, I will give them close putts. It moves the game along.

Lastly, you do realize that @iacas is a rules official, and you are arguing the Rules of Golf with him, correct?

[dennyjones]

6 hours ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

The Rules can say what they want about certain situations but that doesn't alter what is understood as the fundamental gameplay objective.

 

[measureoffsetinnm]

36 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

 

The game of golf predates the current Rules of Golf so they do not fully define what it is.

Edited May 26, 2021 by measureoffsetinnm

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

The game of golf predates the current Rules of Golf so they do not fully define what it is.

Yes, they do.

And do you know what pre-dates the current stroke play obsession? Match play, where you don't have to hole out.

7 hours ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

Why are golf courses composed of individual segments called "holes" then? The Rules can say what they want about certain situations but that doesn't alter what is understood as the fundamental gameplay objective.

The Rules of the game define the objective.

7 hours ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

What do you mean? The ball is called "lost" but what is really meant is that the player was unable to locate it within the amount of time stipulated by the rules.

By definition, the ball is lost. That's what I mean.

7 hours ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

What I meant is that even if someone can win a match play hole without holing out getting the ball in the hole is still their implicit goal.

Kinda. Really, their goal is to beat their opponent, though. That's true whether they get the ball in the hole or not.

7 hours ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

You give someone a putt and they get their current number of strokes + 1 as if they had taken the putt and sank it. If the point is not to get the ball in the hole why are you adding a stroke to their score?

So what's the issue with picking up a two-inch putt?

7 hours ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

People who are going to cheat their handicap are going to cheat their handicap regardless so might as well set up the rules so people like yourself who will honestly follow them and estimate probabilities don't have to feel guilty not holing out if they don't want to for whatever reason.

No, it's not about that at all. It's about pace of play and handicapping rules.

If someone routinely picks up putts they'd otherwise miss the only person they're cheating is themselves. Vanity caps don't hurt anyone but themselves.

7 hours ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

I don't think that really changes what the core objective of golf is but it does make more sense than it did so thank you for taking the time to explain it from your perspective. I think you should not view picking the ball out of the hole as something to be avoided however since it is a good opportunity for single leg hip flexor exercise.

Sometimes old people don't want to bend down. Or waste the time.

This has barely been on topic, so… let's stop before it gets further off into the weeds.

[measureoffsetinnm]

26 minutes ago, iacas said:

Really, their goal is to beat their opponent, though.

What is the task they and their opponent are competing to achieve?

[jsgolfer]

28 minutes ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

What is the task they and their opponent are competing to achieve?

In match play, it is to beat their opponent(s), there is no other goal.  I have won more than my share of holes without ever hitting a putt, little alone being given a conceded putt to win a hole.  

[measureoffsetinnm]

2 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

In match play, it is to beat their opponent(s), there is no other goal.  I have won more than my share of holes without ever hitting a putt, little alone being given a conceded putt to win a hole.  

How?

[jsgolfer]

2 minutes ago, measureoffsetinnm said:

How?

Dude, really?

[georgep]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

This has barely been on topic, so… let's stop before it gets further off into the weeds.

Please listen when asked to move on. You're being silly now. I second this:

1 hour ago, jsgolfer said:

Dude, really?