Short Game Shots

[Vespidae]

Ok. Had a lesson to work on my short game. My instructor wants me to focus on 4+2 shots, in addition to putting. 
 

The 4 shots are for inside 40 yds. They are:

• No hinge and release. Basic chip shot using the leading edge. To be used for fairway lies, not more than 10 yds off the green and no more than 35 yards to the hole. Hit it low and let it run to the hole.
• Bounce and check. Low spinner for pins located in the back of the green or on a tier with danger behind. To be used for 40 -60 yards because of the speed required to spin the ball.
• Cut pinch. High shot using clubhead release to generate speed. For carry over bunkers or other obstacles. 
• Flop. High trajectory shot for shortside situations.

The other 2:

• Leading edge trap. A driving partial wedge shot to drive onto the green and release and run to the hole.
• Trail edge floater. A higher, softer shot that uses trajectory to stop the ball.

He suggested I have a game philosophy for choosing which club. For example, if <35 yds out and within 10 yds of the green, the no hinge release should be hit about 80% of ten time. If you are on a tight lie with a back pin and the green slopes slightly up in back, hit the spinner. Otherwise, pitch.

When approaching, if the pin is in the back, use the trap and release. To carry a slope or stop in front, use a high lob. 
 

Any thoughts on this? He added a bunch about the lie (grass, grain, lie, etc), but these are the basics. 

[ncates00]

13 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

Ok. Had a lesson to work on my short game. My instructor wants me to focus on 4+2 shots, in addition to putting. 
 

The 4 shots are for inside 40 yds. They are:

• No hinge and release. Basic chip shot using the leading edge. To be used for fairway lies, not more than 10 yds off the green and no more than 35 yards to the hole. Hit it low and let it run to the hole.
• Bounce and check. Low spinner for pins located in the back of the green or on a tier with danger behind. To be used for 40 -60 yards because of the speed required to spin the ball.
• Cut pinch. High shot using clubhead release to generate speed. For carry over bunkers or other obstacles. 
• Flop. High trajectory shot for shortside situations.

The other 2:

• Leading edge trap. A driving partial wedge shot to drive onto the green and release and run to the hole.
• Trail edge floater. A higher, softer shot that uses trajectory to stop the ball.

He suggested I have a game philosophy for choosing which club. For example, if <35 yds out and within 10 yds of the green, the no hinge release should be hit about 80% of ten time. If you are on a tight lie with a back pin and the green slopes slightly up in back, hit the spinner. Otherwise, pitch.

When approaching, if the pin is in the back, use the trap and release. To carry a slope or stop in front, use a high lob. 
 

Any thoughts on this? He added a bunch about the lie (grass, grain, lie, etc), but these are the basics. 

Go check out the covid practice plan on this forum.
 

I tend to only use the pitching technique around the green. I see chipping more akin to the full swing since it used the leading edge. I don’t use chipping technique much except for chipping out from under trees or hitting more of a full swing type motion. 

[Bonvivant]

I've only ever used 2 methods, chip (foward shaft lean) and pitch (no shaft lean)(3 if you don't put flop in with pitch, which I do). The only other one I had heard of was the low spinner, but don't see a purpose for it in my game (yet).

I still don't see a reason for all of these shots unless someone is at scratch level or better. The others on this list don't have meaning for me and would require more explanation to even understand how they work or their differences from the other shots. 

[ChetlovesMer]

51 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

Ok. Had a lesson to work on my short game. My instructor wants me to focus on 4+2 shots, in addition to putting. 
 

The 4 shots are for inside 40 yds. They are:

• No hinge and release. Basic chip shot using the leading edge. To be used for fairway lies, not more than 10 yds off the green and no more than 35 yards to the hole. Hit it low and let it run to the hole.
• Bounce and check. Low spinner for pins located in the back of the green or on a tier with danger behind. To be used for 40 -60 yards because of the speed required to spin the ball.
• Cut pinch. High shot using clubhead release to generate speed. For carry over bunkers or other obstacles. 
• Flop. High trajectory shot for shortside situations.

The other 2:

• Leading edge trap. A driving partial wedge shot to drive onto the green and release and run to the hole.
• Trail edge floater. A higher, softer shot that uses trajectory to stop the ball.

He suggested I have a game philosophy for choosing which club. For example, if <35 yds out and within 10 yds of the green, the no hinge release should be hit about 80% of ten time. If you are on a tight lie with a back pin and the green slopes slightly up in back, hit the spinner. Otherwise, pitch.

When approaching, if the pin is in the back, use the trap and release. To carry a slope or stop in front, use a high lob. 
 

Any thoughts on this? He added a bunch about the lie (grass, grain, lie, etc), but these are the basics. 

Wow, that feels like a lot for one lesson. 
Is this the kind of instructor you go see once and then will take another lesson from him a year from now? If so, I guess I get it. 
If this is the kind of instructor you go see regularly then this feels like way too much for one lesson. 

[Vespidae]

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

I've only ever used 2 methods, chip (foward shaft lean) and pitch (no shaft lean)(3 if you don't put flop in with pitch, which I do). The only other one I had heard of was the low spinner, but don't see a purpose for it in my game (yet).

I still don't see a reason for all of these shots unless someone is at scratch level or better. The others on this list don't have meaning for me and would require more explanation to even understand how they work or their differences from the other shots. 

I’ll answer it as best I can.

The basic shots are low shots and high shots, so you’re on track. If I understood him correctly, you have to plan your shot based on a) the lie and b) where and how it will land. 
 

For example, a low spinny pitch is still just a pitch. It’s application is different that’s all. 
 

The “2” shots are just 50 yd half wedges. One if when the pin is further back, one is when you have to carry a slope and stop the ball.
 

It’s not that complicated. Basically, two shots where you adjust set up based on how you need to flight the ball.
 

Do I need all these shots? Based on my stats, he wants me to improve my scrambling %. That’s the weakest area of my game. 

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Wow, that feels like a lot for one lesson. 
Is this the kind of instructor you go see once and then will take another lesson from him a year from now? If so, I guess I get it. 
If this is the kind of instructor you go see regularly then this feels like way too much for one lesson. 

I’ve been working with him for 4 years. He wants me to dramatically up my scrambling percentage.

[Bonvivant]

50 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

The “2” shots are just 50 yd half wedges. One if when the pin is further back, one is when you have to carry a slope and stop the ball.

I can't think of a shot where you would "have" to carry a slope that is on the green. Why not play a low bump and run and let the slope take the speed out?

53 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

Do I need all these shots? Based on my stats, he wants me to improve my scrambling %. That’s the weakest area of my game. 

If driving or iron play was the weakest part of your game, would you learn the 9 ball flights, or would you learn one or two that work for you?

I am consistently in the +SG short on my taylormade app when compared to 15 handicap...usually somewhere between 4 and 8 shots on any given round. My weak point is approach and tee, but that doesn't mean I am going to go learn draw stingers when my natural shot is a high fade.

[saevel25]

I hit pitch shots about 95% of the time. I don't hit many chip shots. There are some cases were you can hit a shot that blends the two. 

 

[iacas]

You're a 17.1, still?

I'd learn two shots and use those:

• A chip.
• A pitch.

That's it. Do that until you're a… 5. They're plenty versatile, but you really shouldn't be worrying much about "cut lob spinners" and stuff (not a direct exact quote).

[gbogey]

I don't want to criticize your instructor as I'm sure he knows more about golf than I do, but that sounds crazy complicated. Especially if your profile is correct and you are a 17 handicap, I would think your priority is to eliminate mistakes that lead to DB, not get up and down close every time. I think most amateurs are good with a basic chip and a basic pitch, and then add how to make the chip low and run and how to open the club face to make the pitch a lob. I wouldn't advise more than that. As you get proficient you can add some / play around with other types of shots, but for where you seem to be stick with the basics.

I've been a 5 for the last two years (haven't update my profile) and I basically only hit the two shots that Iacas mentioned with the two variations above.

Edited October 5, 2020 by gbogey
Added based upon Iacas comments

[Vespidae]

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

I can't think of a shot where you would "have" to carry a slope that is on the green. Why not play a low bump and run and let the slope take the speed out?

How about a Biarritz green when you’re five yard short of the green? I don’t see how you bump and run that, but if you can ... you’re a helluva lot better player than me.

My local track is an RTJ course. If you can’t pitch it to the flat spots on the green ... you are D-E-A-D.

Thats two I can think of ...

[Vespidae]

20 minutes ago, gbogey said:

I don't want to criticize your instructor as I'm sure he knows more about golf than I do, but that sounds crazy complicated. 

 

Is it really that complicated? It’s two shots. A leading edge shot for low trajectory chips and a trailing edge pitch shot ... where the only variables are ball position and loft. 
 

He told me that you don’t miss horizontally with wedges. It’s a distance thing ... so based on the lie and based on the green, decide which shot. Leading edge shots for when you have green to work with and trailing edge when you don’t. Seems pretty simple ... 

[Bonvivant]

19 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

How about a Biarritz green when you’re five yard short of the green? I don’t see how you bump and run that, but if you can ... you’re a helluva lot better player than me.

My local track is an RTJ course. If you can’t pitch it to the flat spots on the green ... you are D-E-A-D.

Thats two I can think of ...

I don't know what any of that means but I haven't found a spot where a pitch, flop, or chip would fail to get me on the green. I may not be on top of the pin every time but I think that 3 shots from greenside (or within 50 yards) is plenty acceptable down to the 5 handicap that @iacas mentioned. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Bonvivant

[gbogey]

11 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

Is it really that complicated? It’s two shots. A leading edge shot for low trajectory chips and a trailing edge pitch shot ... where the only variables are ball position and loft. 
 

He told me that you don’t miss horizontally with wedges. It’s a distance thing ... so based on the lie and based on the green, decide which shot. Leading edge shots for when you have green to work with and trailing edge when you don’t. Seems pretty simple ... 

I found your 4 + 2 explanation complicated so I can only think that trying to manage six shots is complicated. If there's really only two shots then you are going down the right path.

I personally don't like the low and high trajectory explanations. I prefer to think of a "chip" is where there's more/equal roll than carry and a pitch where there's more carry than roll. Then you change loft (by club choice), ball position, or face (amount open vs. square) to adjust trajectory and amount of roll. I don't think it matters whether you are 10 yards or 50 yards up to about 60 yards for me, this pretty much stays the same.

[Vespidae]

4 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I don't know what any of that means but I haven't found a spot where a pitch, flop, or chip would fail to get me on the green. I may not be on top of the pin every time but I think that 3 shots from greenside (or within 50 yards) is plenty acceptable down to the 6 handicap that @iacas mentioned. 

I think we agree on that. And I can get on the green and two putt for my bogey no problem. He wants me to still have a shot at par when I miss the green. That’s the point.

[Vespidae]

2 minutes ago, gbogey said:

I found your 4 + 2 explanation complicated so I can only think that trying to manage six shots is complicated. If there's really only two shots then you are going down the right path.

I think we’re saying the same thing. He said if you’re < 30 yards from the hole, these are your options depending on the green you’re approaching and what lie you have (4 options to hit it ... one “chip” and 3 versions of a pitch depending on how much height you need to stop the ball .. e.g., carry a bunker. But the swing is the same for every pitch.)

James Sieckmann teaches the same thing. Four flights. James Ridyard teaches five. All the same shot with the same club, the only difference being the setup and whether or not you engage the bounce. 

The other two options were approach shots 50+ yards out. Same shot. Depending on whether you want the ball to fly softer and stop or ... you have plenty of green to work with and don’t mind if the ball hops and rolls forward after it lands. 
 

In my mind, it’s two shots. And that how he described it ... using the leading edge or the trailing edge depending on what you have to do. 
 

Clear as mud?
 

[Bonvivant]

10 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

In my mind, it’s two shots. And that how he described it ... using the leading edge or the trailing edge depending on what you have to do. 
 

Clear as mud?

So a pitch and a chip?

Here's the problem expanding it to 6 shots by just varying the set up. You are introducing extra variables to something that already has enough variables. 2 shots is plenty to improve many strokes in your scores. 

For a bit of proof I've included some screenshots of my taylormade mrp rounds based against 15 handicap for SG. The app has me at a 18.3. 

[Vespidae]

13 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Here's the problem expanding it to 6 shots by just varying the set up. You are introducing extra variables to something that already has enough variables. 2 shots is plenty to improve many strokes in your scores. 

Is your 10 yard pitch the same as your 50 yard pitch?

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

Is your 10 yard pitch the same as your 50 yard pitch?

Technique would be the same. The backswing length and pivot rate will be different. I can pitch shots up to 70 yards with my SW. I can also hit more of a standard wedge shot.