"Full Swing" Tour Docuseries on Netflix

[snapfade]

I just watched the first three episode's of the new season. I enjoyed it. I won't elaborate to spoil anything. Solid par for me. 

[Clemsonfan]

I finished Season 2 today and really enjoyed the series. I love behind the scenes information on the pro tours and felt like they did a good job with this. Became a much bigger fan of the Fitzpatricks, and I was a big fan in the past. Will weigh in more once others finish watching Season 2.

[phan52]

As a knowledgeable golf fan, I liked it. But someone who is casual might find it confusing, as some of it is a year old. Maybe they should do it like Hard Knocks, with episodes DURING the season?

There are multiple episodes on the Ryder Cup and I don't think I am giving anything away when I say that a few of the Captain Picks by Zach Johnson were controversial. I am not necessarily a fan of Keegan Bradley but, IMO, he was screwed by a good ol' boy network that exists on Tour. I will be interested in other takes of the situation. 

[klineka]

31 minutes ago, phan52 said:

I am not necessarily a fan of Keegan Bradley but, IMO, he was screwed by a good ol' boy network that exists on Tour. I will be interested in other takes of the situation. 

What facts do you have to support this opinion?

In terms of strokes gained data, Keegan and JT (the person who likely took a spot over Keegan) were pretty much identical statistically in the 2023 season.

JT's strokes gained vs. Keegan's:

Driving - 62nd        58th

Approach - 36th       57th

Around the Green - 4th       113th

Putting - 135th      20th

Total SG - 27th (+.836)       24th (+.885)

So they were pretty much identical players statistically in 2023 with JT having more Ryder Cup experience and a very solid Ryder Cup record. 

Who other than JT should Keegan have replaced on the team?

[dennyjones]

21 minutes ago, klineka said:

What facts do you have to support this opinion?

In terms of strokes gained data, Keegan and JT (the person who likely took a spot over Keegan) were pretty much identical statistically in the 2023 season.

JT's strokes gained vs. Keegan's:

Driving - 62nd        58th

Approach - 36th       57th

Around the Green - 4th       113th

Putting - 135th      20th

Total SG - 27th (+.836)       24th (+.885)

So they were pretty much identical players statistically in 2023 with JT having more Ryder Cup experience and a very solid Ryder Cup record. 

Who other than JT should Keegan have replaced on the team?

I can't argue that data but Fedex Cup points weren't close.   Bradley had 1933 to JT's 608.  Bradley had 2 wins to JT's 0.   Bradley had 6 top 10 wins to JT's 4.   Earnings, although maybe not an indicator was $9m to $3.5.   

Hindsight, JT helped the team and he did have more team experience.   I'm sure that descision was a tough call for ZJ.

[klineka]

16 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

I can't argue that data but Fedex Cup points weren't close.   Bradley had 1933 to JT's 608.  Bradley had 2 wins to JT's 0.   Bradley had 6 top 10 wins to JT's 4.   Earnings, although maybe not an indicator was $9m to $3.5.   

None of that really indicates that Keegan "was screwed by a good ol' boy network that exists on Tour" though. 

Yes Keegan had better results, but statistically they were pretty similar, so no surprise that the nod went to someone who has more Ryder Cup experience.

Edited March 21 by klineka

[p1n9183]

7 minutes ago, klineka said:

Yes Keegan had better results, but statistically they were pretty similar, so no surprise that the nod went to someone who has more Ryder Cup experience.

Statistics showed that Keagan was lucky enough to hit several good shots closer together to win more stuff than JT. Not enough to bench JT, both were pretty similar and experience was the defining factor.

Imagine player A shoots 70-70-70-70 on a tournament and 70-70-70-70 on the next tournament. and B shoots 75-75-75-75 and 65-65-65-65 on the same events. On SG statistics they are going to be equal but player B is more likely to have more wins, or TOP 10 and definitively more earnings in the money list. Is just variance.. been regular is only good if you are on the top, but if you are on the middle of the pack, to gain more points or money at the end of the year you are definitively better off if you are inconsistent. 

 
 

[snapfade]

I kind of had my doubts about Rickie Fowler, and he did do so well. But I don't care much for Bradley. I dont think there was any good ole boy business going on, but maybe. Zach Johnson didn't call me about it so I don't know. Captains ultimately have to go with who they think will bring the most to the team. JT didn't have his best year on tour but his experience and emotion is what the team needed. Didn't work out so well for Team USA but that's a different topic. In regards to his piece on Full Swing, he seems kind of whiny about it. Maybe I would be too. But play your way on to the team and take the Captains picks out of the equation. 

[iacas]

5 hours ago, phan52 said:

There are multiple episodes on the Ryder Cup and I don't think I am giving anything away when I say that a few of the Captain Picks by Zach Johnson were controversial. I am not necessarily a fan of Keegan Bradley but, IMO, he was screwed by a good ol' boy network that exists on Tour. I will be interested in other takes of the situation. 

You can't say on one hand that Europe wins because they're all close to one another and have team chemistry, while on the other hand saying "ah, they just played with their friends, it's a good-ol-boy network."

Also, it was really probably Keegan vs. Sam Burns. Not vs. JT.

[klineka]

3 hours ago, snapfade said:

JT didn't have his best year on tour but his experience and emotion is what the team needed. 

I agree with everything you said, just wanted to point out that JT's "down" year was still pretty dang solid statistically and was well above Tour average per strokes gained.

Until I looked into it today I didn't realize he was as statistically solid as he was since he didn't really have the results we are used to seeing him have.

[phan52]

On 3/21/2024 at 1:43 PM, klineka said:

What facts do you have to support this opinion?

In terms of strokes gained data, Keegan and JT (the person who likely took a spot over Keegan) were pretty much identical statistically in the 2023 season.

JT's strokes gained vs. Keegan's:

Driving - 62nd        58th

Approach - 36th       57th

Around the Green - 4th       113th

Putting - 135th      20th

Total SG - 27th (+.836)       24th (+.885)

So they were pretty much identical players statistically in 2023 with JT having more Ryder Cup experience and a very solid Ryder Cup record. 

Who other than JT should Keegan have replaced on the team?

Keegan won tournaments and JT didn't even qualify for the FedEx Cup playoffs, while Bradley finished in the top 10. Strokes gained is a bogus scale for this, IMO. Just win, baby! Keegan did. 

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, phan52 said:

Keegan won tournaments and JT didn't even qualify for the FedEx Cup playoffs, while Bradley finished in the top 10. Strokes gained is a bogus scale for this, IMO. Just win, baby! Keegan did. 

Keegan also played a lot worse than JT the tournaments he didn't win. And… you can't talk about the Euro team chemistry without saying it may matter to the American squad, too.

[klineka]

1 hour ago, phan52 said:

Keegan won tournaments and JT didn't even qualify for the FedEx Cup playoffs, while Bradley finished in the top 10.

Winning isn't everything. Winning requires quite a bit of luck.

Keegan had 3 tournaments in 2023 where his total strokes gained for the tournament was greater than 3. He got 2 wins and a solo 2nd.

JT had 3 tournaments in 2023 where his total strokes gained for the tournament was greater than 3 (In 3 less events than Keegan btw). He finished 5,4,3 in those. 

Without diving deeper into the stats it's hard to say, but one of the following is true (or maybe a bit of both): Either Keegan got lucky that his +3 SG tournaments resulted in 2 wins and a 2nd, or JT got unlucky that his +3 SG Tournaments resulted in 5,4,3 finishes.

 

1 hour ago, phan52 said:

Strokes gained is a bogus scale for this, IMO.

Why? It shows how a player played relative to his peers. What is bogus about that?

I'm not saying strokes gained is everything, but it's certainly not nothing.

 

Based on your logic of wins significantly outweighing an entire seasons worth of performances, Keegan should have been on the team over Burns, Cantlay, Fowler, Harman, Koepka (LIV wins don't count), Morikawa, Schauffele, Spieth, and Thomas, right? After all Keegan had more wins in the 2023 season than each of those guys did.

Edited April 3 by klineka

[phan52]

On 4/3/2024 at 1:53 PM, iacas said:

Keegan also played a lot worse than JT the tournaments he didn't win. And… you can't talk about the Euro team chemistry without saying it may matter to the American squad, too.

How did that work out?

The Euro team chemistry is a natural thing. Always has been. You can't force that. And, from what I saw on the show, Zach was one of the boys, not a Captain. It was not a good look. JMO. 

 

On 4/3/2024 at 2:34 PM, klineka said:

Based on your logic of wins significantly outweighing an entire seasons worth of performances, Keegan should have been on the team over Burns, Cantlay, Fowler, Harman, Koepka (LIV wins don't count), Morikawa, Schauffele, Spieth, and Thomas, right? After all Keegan had more wins in the 2023 season than each of those guys did.

All of those players qualified for the FedEx Cup and played in the Finals. Except Koepka, of course, but I am not suggesting Bradley supplant him. If a supposed top player can't get in the top 70, I would say that he had a lousy year. IMO, JT was not deserving. 

[klineka]

13 minutes ago, phan52 said:

All of those players qualified for the FedEx Cup and played in the Finals. Except Koepka, of course, but I am not suggesting Bradley supplant him. If a supposed top player can't get in the top 70, I would say that he had a lousy year. IMO, JT was not deserving. 

So now you're saying that their season long body of work actually does matter? That's contradictory to what you've said previously.

On 4/3/2024 at 1:32 PM, phan52 said:

Just win, baby! Keegan did. 

Bradley won more than Koepka (and everyone else I listed previously) but you don't think Bradley should have been on in place of any of them (other than JT)? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

On 4/3/2024 at 1:32 PM, phan52 said:

 Strokes gained is a bogus scale for this, IMO. 

Still waiting on you to support this opinion.

 

[phan52]

 

6 minutes ago, klineka said:

So now you're saying that their season long body of work actually does matter? That's contradictory to what you've said previously.

Bradley won more than Koepka (and everyone else I listed previously) but you don't think Bradley should have been on in place of any of them (other than JT)? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

Still waiting on you to support this opinion.

 

 

6 minutes ago, klineka said:

 

 

Still waiting on you to support this opinion.

 

He finished out of the top 70 on the Tour, so what did his shots gained do for him?

IMO, he made the team because he is buddies with Zach. The show made that friendship very clear. 

Edited April 5 by phan52

[klineka]

5 minutes ago, phan52 said:

He finished out of the top 70 on the Tour, so what did his shots gained do for him?

Like I said before, it proves that JT played better than his results, which is unlucky.

That doesn't mean that strokes gained is a "bogus scale".

Judging players solely on if they've won or not to determine if they should be on the Ryder Cup team is way more "bogus" than using strokes gained data to support the claim that a player performed better over the entire season than their FedEx Cup finish suggests.

 

12 minutes ago, phan52 said:

IMO, he made the team because he is buddies with Zach. The show made that friendship very clear. 

That was certainly a contributing factor no doubt (as it should be), but it's not like there was someone who, (IMO) when looking at the entire package of what they bring to the table (including their play, chemistry, leadership, etc), was hands down more deserving than JT. 

JT backed it up in Rome too, scoring more points than 6 other guys and only 3 players on the US team scored more than he did.

[phan52]

3 minutes ago, klineka said:

Like I said before, it proves that JT played better than his results, which is unlucky.

That doesn't mean that strokes gained is a "bogus scale".

Judging players solely on if they've won or not to determine if they should be on the Ryder Cup team is way more "bogus" than using strokes gained data to support the claim that a player performed better over the entire season than their FedEx Cup finish suggests.

 

That was certainly a contributing factor no doubt (as it should be), but it's not like there was someone who, (IMO) when looking at the entire package of what they bring to the table (including their play, chemistry, leadership, etc), was hands down more deserving than JT. 

JT backed it up in Rome too, scoring more points than 6 other guys and only 3 players on the US team scored more than he did.

IMO, the primary reason that JT was picked was because of his relationship to Zach, and I think that is unfair to other deserving players. We'll just have to agree to disagree. 

BTW, I have always been a JT fan, but I think that he has been an underachiever since he won the PGA.