Sandbagging in Club Tournaments

[rkim291968]

This is an area where it's easy to think people are cheating, but it's much harder to prove it.

My club is a great example: lots of people complain that certain people win all the time, and there are guys with 9 hcps who somehow seem to end up winning skills contests like closest to pin or longest drive with unusual regularity.

But I'm sure if you really studied these golfers at my club, it would be very hard to really find compelling evidence of cheating.

Now, when it comes to handicap tournaments where there is alot of money or prizes involved, and people bring in guests and so forth to play, I agree there is definitely a problem. I've heard of guys with 12 handicaps hitting 300 yard drives and shooting 75 in member guest tournaments at my club. Our pro told me that while it has been rare, he HAS had to occasionally change a club member's handicap because the committee determined the number and the posted scores did not reflect the player's true ability.

But for common, low $ nassau matches I play every week, I don't think there is significant sandbagging.

While I am sure there are people at every club who post falsely high scores to boost their hcp, I honestly believe it's MUCH more common for people to post incorrectly LOW numbers. This means that most golfers' hcps are too low for their ability, and when they play someone who posts honestly, they get killed.

I have been accused of sandbagging, but in reality I just easily beat alot of guys in my handicap range because most of them have unrealistic, vanity handicap numbers.

There is a guy at my club....won the club championship 20 years ago....has a beautiful swing, and is a gentleman, and a great guy. But for some reason, he just can't play anymore. I've never lost to this guy, not even close.....but when I search his name on ghin, I see he never posts anything above 85, and posts lots of rounds in the 70s. His handicap is 2-3 strokes lower than mine. In reality, if he played by USGA rules and counted every stroke, he has not broken 90 in the last 2 years I am certain.

He's an extreme example, but I see it all the time.....people are in their pocket on a hole during a match, and then they write down a bogey or a double on the card when they should have posted a 7. I played with another former club champ recently....he can still play, but he posted an 82 for a round when in reality he shot about 87, and seemed phobic about posting a double. On one hole I asked him his score and he even said "well, it was really a 6, but for my ego, put down 5."

Most of us know that if someone concedes a twelve footer so we can't show our partner the line, we aren't supposed to take 1 putt....but do we do it all the time when we rake away a difficult 4 footer because the hole is over?

I think your mileage varies depending on how club members behave, how active handicap committee is in reminding people to post accurate numbers, etc..  I think my club operated using honor's system so long that it bred sandbaggers.   There are of course, vanity handicappers in my club, probably in equal number to sandbaggers.   They hurt their teammates in two ball competition, scramble, and other team tournaments.   I think they'd have hard time finding partners to enter team competition over time.    Anyway, someone may have finally complained and the club is at least letting the players know that they need to post all scores.  That's a step in the right direction.

[RH31]

"Sandbagging" is much more prevalent now than it used to be, at least where I play. There is not one single day that goes by that a player(s) handicap is not questioned.

The problem is that so much net golf sandbagging eventually leads to a "can't beat 'em join 'em mindset" and it just snowballs out of control.

I hate net golf so much that sometimes I don't even want to play.

[newtogolf]

"Sandbagging" is much more prevalent now than it used to be, at least where I play. There is not one single day that goes by that a player(s) handicap is not questioned.

The problem is that so much net golf sandbagging eventually leads to a "can't beat 'em join 'em mindset" and it just snowballs out of control.

I hate net golf so much that sometimes I don't even want to play.

Do you really believe sandbagging is more prevalent or that increased vanity capping has given that appearance?

Given my experience at two different clubs, being able to play in the Saturday and Sunday money games drive golfers more than the few club tournaments.  The big money gamers (who usually get the prime tee times on the weekends) don't like to give up a lot of strokes and it seems that unless you're at or below a 15 handicap you don't get invited to play.  It's a prestige thing, until you get invited to play in the big money games you're not a part of the 'inner circle".

I see all of the same things @Big Lex does and worse with very little indication of members sandbagging.

[RH31]

Do you really believe sandbagging is more prevalent or that increased vanity capping has given that appearance?

Given my experience at two different clubs, being able to play in the Saturday and Sunday money games drive golfers more than the few club tournaments.  The big money gamers (who usually get the prime tee times on the weekends) don't like to give up a lot of strokes and it seems that unless you're at or below a 15 handicap you don't get invited to play.  It's a prestige thing, until you get invited to play in the big money games you're not a part of the 'inner circle".

I see all of the same things @Big Lex does and worse with very little indication of members sandbagging.

Yes, I do or I wouldn't have stated so.

I've only encountered 3 people who manipulate their handicap lower in 30 years I've played. Two players did it to qualify for tournaments that had handicap max restrictions of 5. The other guy used to be a 4-5 and can't deal with the 85's he shoots now and posts 80-82 every time he plays.

The tournament I played in this past weekend featured a winning team of 15 handicappers shooting a 2 day net best 18 of 36 ball score of 53(-18). I've never played with these guys but I can tell you that no true 15 handicapper I've ever seen could tee it up and play that well 2 days in a row in a tournament.

[DaveP043]

The tournament I played in this past weekend featured a winning team of 15 handicappers shooting a 2 day net best 18 of 36 ball score of 53(-18). I've never played with these guys but I can tell you that no true 15 handicapper I've ever seen could tee it up and play that well 2 days in a row in a tournament.

I'm a little confused about the format of this tournament.  Are you saying that they each play hole number 1 twice, and record the lowest individual net score they make, i.e. the lowest of the four (two players playing the hole twice) scores they shoot?  If that's the case, I can see net 18 under as being very possible.

[Dloy]

SubPar touched on my situation around page 1. I am a 14 and usually struggle to break 90. I have talent but there's often drama somewhere in my round. I enjoy playing tournaments, partly because I focus more. Since I focus more, I often shoot a better score, maybe 60% of the time. Not dramatically but maybe 5 strokes, which makes a difference. I work on my game and someday hope to get into single digits. The absolute LAST thing I want is to be labeled as a sandbagger. I have far more integrity than to cheat to win a prize. The point is, many of us (I imagine) play better in a tournament than a casual day at the course.

[rkim291968]

SubPar touched on my situation around page 1. I am a 14 and usually struggle to break 90. I have talent but there's often drama somewhere in my round. I enjoy playing tournaments, partly because I focus more. Since I focus more, I often shoot a better score, maybe 60% of the time. Not dramatically but maybe 5 strokes, which makes a difference. I work on my game and someday hope to get into single digits. The absolute LAST thing I want is to be labeled as a sandbagger. I have far more integrity than to cheat to win a prize. The point is, many of us (I imagine) play better in a tournament than a casual day at the course.

( Dloy, I am not accusing you of being a sandbagger in my next line.   Just continuing with the discussion.   )

You may be playing better in tournaments but that's often the very reason sandbaggers claim on their doing well in tournaments.  "Yeah, I focus and play better with something on the line."  I also like to believe I focus better when there is something on the line.   In fact, I take more time with pre-warm up routine, check all my game leading to the tournament, etc..  But that prep cannot beat 5 strokes that a sandbaggers are cheating with their handicap.    Somewhere in this forum, there is a chart of "odds" on what a typical amateur will shoot below their handicap.   For examples, (don't quote me on this, I am just making one up for argument's sake), it may be 5000 to 1 for  a 14 HI golfer to shoot 5 strokes better than his HI average at a given round.   To do it 2 days in a row is 5000 x 5000 = 25000000 to 1.  So, when someone happens to average 5 strokes better than his HI in tournaments, the odd of doing that is astronomical.   Hence, the suspicion that they are sandbagging.

(Dloy, just count your blessing that you do better in tournaments.   That's a rare gift. )

[Dloy]

It just makes sense to me that we all (typically) do better when we concentrate more. So, I don't think the odds of doing so are astronomical at all, even twice in a row. On any given day I might shoot anywhere from mid 80s to upper 90s, depending on a lot of things (fatigue, hangover, course familiarity, etc.). I have even broken 80 two or three times, thankfully (maybe) not in a tournament. Not recently either. Now, the odds of me (at 14) shooting a near par round are pretty remote.

[DaveP043]

You may be playing better in tournaments but that's often the very reason sandbaggers claim on their doing well in tournaments.  "Yeah, I focus and play better with something on the line."  I also like to believe I focus better when there is something on the line.   In fact, I take more time with pre-warm up routine, check all my game leading to the tournament, etc..  But that prep cannot beat 5 strokes that a sandbaggers are cheating with their handicap.    Somewhere in this forum, there is a chart of "odds" on what a typical amateur will shoot below their handicap.   For examples, (don't quote me on this, I am just making one up for argument's sake), it may be 5000 to 1 for  a 14 HI golfer to shoot 5 strokes better than his HI average at a given round.   To do it 2 days in a row is 5000 x 5000 = 25000000 to 1.  So, when someone happens to average 5 strokes better than his HI in tournaments, the odd of doing that is astronomical.   Hence, the suspicion that they are sandbagging.

rkim, this statistical research was used by the USGA in setting up their system for addressing exceptionally low tournament scores.  As far as I've read, the evaluation used scores from many golfers, but I've never read that they took into account some of the intangibles that Dloy mentions, including heightened concentration, more thorough preparation, etc. on the day of the tournaments.  On the other hand, a player's reaction to tournament pressure might skew the scores higher.  Statistics like this have value, but I'm not sure they should ever be applied to any one individual.  They ARE applied, via the handicap system,  but I'm a little skeptical.  Additionally, if a player's handicap is reduced based on exceptional tournament scores, the local Handicap Committee is required to review the situation, and can modify that player's index in any way they see fit.

Like Dloy, I generally prepare and concentrate better during tournaments.  Some specifics, for the last 12 months I have posted 70 rounds, with an average of 80.5.  This  During that same time period, I've posted 20 tournament rounds, averaging 77.8.  I post all scores, I don't manipulate my casual scores, I believe I'm as honest as I can be, but my scoring history might lead a statistician to think otherwise.  At my club, I see many more vanity handicaps than intentional sandbaggers.

[rkim291968]

rkim, this statistical research was used by the USGA in setting up their system for addressing exceptionally low tournament scores.  As far as I've read, the evaluation used scores from many golfers, but I've never read that they took into account some of the intangibles that Dloy mentions, including heightened concentration, more thorough preparation, etc. on the day of the tournaments.  On the other hand, a player's reaction to tournament pressure might skew the scores higher.  Statistics like this have value, but I'm not sure they should ever be applied to any one individual.  They ARE applied, via the handicap system,  but I'm a little skeptical.  Additionally, if a player's handicap is reduced based on exceptional tournament scores, the local Handicap Committee is required to review the situation, and can modify that player's index in any way they see fit.

Like Dloy, I generally prepare and concentrate better during tournaments.  Some specifics, for the last 12 months I have posted 70 rounds, with an average of 80.5.  This  During that same time period, I've posted 20 tournament rounds, averaging 77.8.  I post all scores, I don't manipulate my casual scores, I believe I'm as honest as I can be, but my scoring history might lead a statistician to think otherwise.  At my club, I see many more vanity handicaps than intentional sandbaggers.

I used the chart to make a point, no more or no less.

Consider that it's not easy to match one's HI score.  The odd is one in 4.  To match it two days in a row, the odd is 1 in 16.   That happens to us mortals.   To beat it by 5 strokes, then do it again in the next round is going to be rare unless you are in a zone, or improving rapidly.   The odd of that happening is going to be a lot worse than 16 to 1.  To do well in most tournaments even accounting for some percentage of vanity handicapper is going to be extremely rare.

But I will make a point that if  tournament is base on 80% or 90%, the advantage goes to lower handicap players. I can  see them taking turns in winning most tournaments interrupted by a golfer being in a zone or by rapidly improving one, all things being equal & fair.   My clubs tournaments are at 100% handicap.

[DaveP043]

This all brings to mind the Dean Knuth Tournament Point System.

http://www.popeofslope.com/pointsystem/

Dean Knuth helped the USGA when it implemented the Slope system, and has remained interested in handicapping issues.   I won't get into details of it here, you can read about at his website, but basically he proposes a system that identifies players who perform disproportionately well in club tournaments.  I think this has merit in that the system doesn't evaluate your scores against a set of statistical norms, but evaluates your performance as measured against your fellow members.  If you place high enough in a a large enough number of net competitions, your handicap for tournaments at your club would be reduced.  Your USGA handicap index wouldn't change, just the strokes you get in home tournaments.  Its an interesting approach to in-club sandbagging.

[RH31]

I'm a little confused about the format of this tournament.  Are you saying that they each play hole number 1 twice, and record the lowest individual net score they make, i.e. the lowest of the four (two players playing the hole twice) scores they shoot?  If that's the case, I can see net 18 under as being very possible.

Yes, best ball of partners, low 18 of 36...net. They are 15 handicappers. In theory, they are supposed to shoot around 86 (gross)(par71) each. Two 15 handicappers can't shoot a gross best ball

68. The lowest gross score was 62 by a 4 and 5 handicap team.

[Fairway_CY]

Personally, I'm one who tends to lean towards the 'tournament scores SHOULD be better' side of the argument.

As has been mentioned... concentration seems to be increased.  A lot of times, during tournaments, I'll factor in things that I don't even think about when I'm playing a regular/casual round.  For example... which side of the green has more trouble?  In a casual round, I'm WAY more prone to going at the pin regardless of surrounding trouble.  This is because I want to see if I CAN hit it if I NEED to hit it.  In a tournament, depending on the situation, I'm more likely to ignore the pin... focus on the safe side of the green... factor in my current miss (left, right, short, long)... and then play to the safest option for me.

I've played in a bunch of tournaments this year (all flighted, not net scoring) and, when I concentrate and grind... I can make 3, 4 or 5 pars in a row... even missing fairways and greens.  I've also found myself with my concentration waning because I've been playing poorly... and I'll go back to my 'casual round' mentality and get more aggressive, taking on shots I have no business trying in those situations.

I'm fully capable of posting an 85... and I'm fully capable of posting a 105.  My handicap is as high as it is for a reason.  I post EVERY score, even if it's embarrassing to do so.  I've had a few rounds this season that I posted in the 60s for 9 holes.  I didn't WANT to post them, but... I did anyway.  The good thing is that, for the club I play with, only our tournament scores within that club are counted towards our tournament index.

In our first 'major' tournament of the season... I posted an ugly 96 in the first round.  I came back the next day and I posted an 85... finishing tied for 3rd in the flight.

One thing I think a LOT of lower handicap (under 10) players ignore is the fact that, typically, higher handicap players (15+) don't get to play all that often.  When I'm playing more... I clearly play better.  My swing becomes more consistent... I tend to have a better idea of which path my ball is going to take... my distances are more consistent.  This all results in lower scores.  But, I may get to play 3 or 4 times in a 2 week period... and I consider that playing often for me.  More likely... I'll play in a tournament, put my clubs down for 2 weeks, and go back for the next tournament.  My work and home life just doesn't afford me much playing time.  So... those times when I DO get to play more often and 'groove' my swing... I'm going to post better scores.

For the MOST part, lower handicap players tend to be able to play more often.  I know a lot of the guys that I play with in these tournaments are playing 2-3 times per week, as opposed to me playing 2-3 times per month.  I'd LOVE to play more often, and I feel like I've got moments where I could be a 10 handicap.  A lot of times, I'll start out well in a round and someone will ask me my handicap and when I tell them 18 or 19... they tell me I'm full of it.  Then I'll have a stretch of 3 or 4 holes where I'll put a ball OB off the tee, drop some balls into a hazard, take 3 strokes to get out of a bunker.  If I played more frequently... I'd be more prone to avoiding those types of things... and every so often, I'll have a round where I WON'T lose a ball, and those are the rounds where I'll post an 85, with a course handicap of 22, which would equate to a net 63.  The thing is... those rounds are fairly rare for me, unless I'm playing more often... and then my handicap is dropping.

But... anyway... yeah.  If the same 5 or 6 guys are winning net tournaments over and over... something's not right.  To consistently shoot 5 or 6 strokes lower than your handicap in tournaments isn't right.  1 or 2 strokes, I can see.  An occasional -7 net round can happen if everything clicks.  To consistently post those types of scores... you need to be looked at.

CY

[rkim291968]

But... anyway... yeah.  If the same 5 or 6 guys are winning net tournaments over and over... something's not right.  To consistently shoot 5 or 6 strokes lower than your handicap in tournaments isn't right.  1 or 2 strokes, I can see.  An occasional -7 net round can happen if everything clicks.  To consistently post those types of scores... you need to be looked at.

Exactly.

What I found with low handicappers are that they are more consistent, and their score range narrower.   I can go 90 and 110 in back to back rounds and just hope that I am playing tournament when I shoot 90.   But I won't be going 90 every time I play tournament.    A suspected sandbagger in my club with single digit HI (probably plays 3 - 4 strokes better than that) put in 2 scores in 90s just before tournament season began and claimed he had a bad week.  The guy routinely scores in low 80s and high 70s in tournaments.   We know he clowned around in those "90" rounds to "manage" his handicap.  Worse yet, he will submit very few scores afterward until tournament season is over.  I think this prompted the club's decision to post tournament scores instead of  letting members to post them (or not).  This way, at least, his tournament scores will be counted in his handicap calculation.

[DaveP043]

Yes, best ball of partners, low 18 of 36...net. They are 15 handicappers. In theory, they are supposed to shoot around 86 (gross)(par71) each. Two 15 handicappers can't shoot a gross best ball

68. The lowest gross score was 62 by a 4 and 5 handicap team.

Its just one example, but in a inter-club match a few years back my partner and I, handicaps 5 and 7, shot a gross better-ball score of 65.  Out net would have been 59 or 60.  That's for one round.  If we did it again, its quite reasonable that we would have improved on at least a few of the holes, putting us close to the -18 number.  For a higher-handicap team, getting more strokes, and with an inherently wider deviation from the norm, I can believe that with some lucky ham-and-egging, they could be in the same ballpark.

[bkuehn1952]

The handicap system requires every player to make their best effort on every shot.  Where the system falls a bit short is when many of us fail to concentrate on each shot and play like we are in a tournament every time out.  Think about these scenarios.  Player Z plays a practice round prior to an event, practices his short game diligently for a week, warms up prior to the event for 30 minutes and employs course management during the event.  Next week Player Z joins his buddies for 18.  He arrives 5 minutes before tee off, putts a few balls, hasn't touched his clubs for a week, tries to reach every par 5 in 2 and fails each time with bad consequences and eventually stops trying hard to score with 3 holes left because he realizes he can't break 90 that day.

Play Z has not done anything specific to try to inflate his handicap index. He would say his secret to success was he concentrates more and plays"smart" in tournaments.  Taken to the extreme, a player with 10 casual rounds and 10 tournament rounds could have all his tournament rounds count as part of his 10 best differentials out of 20.  That would assure him of beating his handicap close to 50% of the time in tournament play.  Statistically one would expect that to happen 20%-25% of the time.  His success rate in handicap events is twice as frequent as the average participant.

My opinion is Player Z is unintentionally violating the spirit of the USGA handicap system.  I would not label him a sandbagger, as I believe that requires intent.  Nonetheless, the handicap committee has to address the issue with Player Z and assign him a lower tournament handicap to bring his results more in line with the 25% target.  Is this the equivalent of golf socialism?  Maybe. Ultimately the handicap system is an enforced leveling of the playing field.  If one wants unfettered competition, play in "scratch" events.

[imsys0042]

The handicap system requires every player to make their best effort on every shot.  Where the system falls a bit short is when many of us fail to concentrate on each shot and play like we are in a tournament every time out.  Think about these scenarios.  Player Z plays a practice round prior to an event, practices his short game diligently for a week, warms up prior to the event for 30 minutes and employs course management during the event.  Next week Player Z joins his buddies for 18.  He arrives 5 minutes before tee off, putts a few balls, hasn't touched his clubs for a week, tries to reach every par 5 in 2 and fails each time with bad consequences and eventually stops trying hard to score with 3 holes left because he realizes he can't break 90 that day. Play Z has not done anything specific to try to inflate his handicap index. He would say his secret to success was he concentrates more and plays"smart" in tournaments.  Taken to the extreme, a player with 10 casual rounds and 10 tournament rounds could have all his tournament rounds count as part of his 10 best differentials out of 20.  That would assure him of beating his handicap close to 50% of the time in tournament play.  Statistically one would expect that to happen 20%-25% of the time.  His success rate in handicap events is twice as frequent as the average participant.  My opinion is Player Z is unintentionally violating the spirit of the USGA handicap system.  I would not label him a sandbagger, as I believe that requires intent.  Nonetheless, the handicap committee has to address the issue with Player Z and assign him a lower tournament handicap to bring his results more in line with the 25% target.  Is this the equivalent of golf socialism?  Maybe. Ultimately the handicap system is an enforced leveling of the playing field.  If one wants unfettered competition, play in "scratch" events.

I understand what you are saying but there is a problem with that argument. There are many kinds of golf rounds. Rounds with a $5 Nassau are going to be different than if you play with people you don't know and both of those will be different from tournament rounds. If I'm playing in a tournament I won't be as aggressive as a casual round where if I have a couple of blow up holes on a risky shot or 2. A handicap has to be a balance of a your rounds and I like the idea of tournament rounds hanging around longer since people can game their handicaps. Handicaps are imperfect. It doesn't capture some of the situations that you describe but it does a good job. The example you cite of someone who knows they won't break a certain number so kind of gives up is true in any round. If they gave up, then their score reflects it. But that should be part of their handicap because most likely they are in a tourney where they are out of it , then they will do the same thing. I think what handicap committees should be looking at is anomalies that don't add up. One third of my scores come from playing by myself and I've spoken with my pro shop about thar issue. They maintain that if I'm honest there is no problem. But should I post scores that give me an advantage there is a paper trail and if it looks like I am gaming the system, then it'll become an issue. Anyone can take advantage of the system. But people tend to find out in the end and you'll get called out for it.

[rkim291968]

Anyone can take advantage of the system. But people tend to find out in the end and you'll get called out for it.

I am the thread starter and the above is the issue I wanted to point out.   My club made things too easy for members to cheat and is starting to address it albeit gently for now.  I don't have confidence that it is going to work.  A few people who are so blinded by their desire to win at all cost will continue to "take advantage of the system."   That's human nature.   IMO, my handicap committee must continue to educate and let the sandbaggers know that they are closely being watched.   If it works, it will help the others to enjoy their tournament experience.

As for submitting scores which count, I play every round hard, trying to score the lowest I can.  I don't give up in the middle of a round whether it is casual or tournament round.  If I am experimenting, then I won't count the round's score for my handicap.  To be honest, I don't have too many practice rounds.   That's what ranges are for.   I wish others do the same but I understand if they don't.