Sandbagging in Club Tournaments

[sonicblue]

In my league (9 hole matches), I currently play at a 6 handicap. I'm not playing well so early in the year, I've shot 42 and 43 (par 34) the first two times out. A new guy in the league this year is a 16 handicap (remember, 9 holes) and shot a 50 and 55 his first two times out. Tonight, we were matched up.

Second hole, he pushes a drive right, punches a low cut to 30 yards, pitches on to about 10 feet and drains the putt. Fourth hole, par 3, he hits a weak tee shot right, 40 yards short, pitches on to about 8 feet, drains the putt. Fifth hole, decent drive, tops his second to right next to my drive, 135 yards out, hits the green from there, two putts for bogey. Seventh, par 5, hard dogleg right, drives short of a creek, hits his second about 230 up the right side in the rough, pitches out from under trees, pitches onto the green, two putt bogey.

He was +2 after four holes, and was bucking to beat me GROSS. The match was over by the sixth hole, I think. On the eighth, he hits a perfect 3-wood drive. His approach goes left in trouble, he pitches out, then has a putt right off the fringe. He completely flubs it, leaves it like 15 feet short. He did something similar on the 9th (can't remember the details).

He did a bunch of things no guy of his level should do. He ended up with a gross 45, NET 29, which was easily a net 27 if he didn't sandbag a couple at the end! I shot a gross 39 and got waxed. My partner and I were pissed......

[Bradenator]

Having observed players in many tournaments I have concluded that inaccurate handicaps are not the biggest inequity. Better players actually know the rules better than higher handicappers. The rules of golf are not easy to follow and most players haven't the foggiest notion how to rule in many of the most common situations.

Totally agree. After a "many moon" break from playing any competitions, I am finally getting back in, getting an active GHIN, etc...and am partially dreading competing on net again. I try to focus on my own gross, rather than net....but since all the goodies tend to go to net, well, it can be frustrating, but at the same time, I like the idea of everyone having a chance at winning if they play to their own personal best. I've read a lot both ways on where, if any, of the advantage lies....but from my own experience, higher handicappers tend to fare better...I would think the misapplication of rules is part of this, though wonder if this wouldn't already be picked up in already skewed cards they have turned in, assuming the culprit isn't a concious sandbagger? Hard to say for sure, but can't help but think that 1.) The tendency for less experienced (and presumably higher handicap) golfer is to err on the side of less harsh penalty if they are unsure, and 2.) To make more blasphemous errors that reduce overall risk (e.g. taking a 2 clublength drop from OB, with a one stroke penalty...wow) ,and 3.) These tendencies ultimately puts more experienced players, regardless of handicap, at a disadvantage.

My wife is learning the game, and as she is learning the rules, she feels that many of them are "not fair", and has a hard time believing some of them. Perhaps a similar perspective drives some of the less punative calls, as the player feels that their interpretation is "fair" under the circumstances? Again, hard to say... In casual play, I'll let someone butcher the rules all they want, as long as they aren't turning in their card at the end of the day. Casual play, then that's on them. If they are planning to turn in a card, I will say something, but can't "make" them do anything, not that I would really try. In tournament play, I am not shy about being the ***** that ruins their day if they are not playing by the rules, but I don't see it this way, and am a gentleman about it, and stop him before the he starts a chain of miscues that ultimately wind up in a DQ. Yet another disadvantage, as the more knowledgable player is now having to play "bad cop", which is tough when you are trying to focus on your pla, and not what in the world Homer might be doing over near those OB stakes this time.... Rules are rules, and we are all supposed to abide by them. You don't have to like them, you don't even have to memorize them- just look them up if you are not absolutely 100% sure (I do this all the time), and if you are 99% sure, and make the wrong call, be prepared to suffer the consequences (have done this as well, when I was "sure"). The USGA isn't charging a whole lot for the rule book...what is it, like a buck? Better yet, spring the $15, and get a fancy membership card with a hat and a sharp looking bag tag.... So, in an attempt to get my little rant centered back on the actual topic, I would tend to think that SubPar makes an excellent, but rarely discussed point here, and that misapplication of the rules are a very real "hidden sandbag factor", if you will, particularly on courses that have a lot of hazards, etc... On a side note, wanted to note that I believe that chipping and putting are actually permitted during a round on the tee box of next hole to be played, or the previous green, but the committee reserves the right to prohibit practice and/or rolling of ball on the previous green. And of course, straddling a short putt is permitted, if, (and I believe, ONLY if) the reason for doing so is to avoid stepping in someone's line.

[shortgame85]

I just wish to comment on the fact that I really enjoyed SubPar and Bradenator's remarks regarding the observance of rules. I think they make excellent points. And, their comments are an admonishment to me to brush up on my knowledge of the rules.

[rkim291968]

Bump on the old thread - seems the most appropriate one to post the following.

This is my 2nd year in club tournaments and the trend of few members (suspected sandbaggers) taking turns in winning tournament continues.  But I think my club's handicap committee finally decided to do something and sent out a few reminders on posting round results.  It will also post tournament results instead of leaving it to individual to post on their own.  I saw it as a mild warning to the sandbaggers that someone's watching but probably not enough to change their behavior overnight.   BTW, I've learned a polite way to say so and so is a sandbagger - "that guy manages (?) his handicap well."

[newtogolf]

Bump on the old thread - seems the most appropriate one to post the following.

This is my 2nd year in club tournaments and the trend of few members (suspected sandbaggers) taking turns in winning tournament continues.  But I think my club's handicap committee finally decided to do something and sent out a few reminders on posting round results.  It will also post tournament results instead of leaving it to individual to post on their own.  I saw it as a mild warning to the sandbaggers that someone's watching but probably not enough to change their behavior overnight.   BTW, I've learned a polite way to say so and so is a sandbagger - "that guy manages (?) his handicap well."

I believe there are real sandbaggers out there but what I'm seeing more commonly is that a lot of golfers maintain a vanity handicap.  I'm not suggesting you're a vanity capper, this is just an observation I've made over the past few years.

When the vanity cappers compete in tournaments against people who maintain an honest handicap they lose because they aren't getting enough strokes against those who maintain an accurate handicap played in accordance to the ROG.

I'm likely going to beat golfer x who has an recorded handicap of 15 which includes all of his mulligans, gimme's, foot wedges, etc if my 23 handicap was based on playing in accordance with the ROG because of the strokes they are giving up.

If the majority of members maintain a vanity cap, those who strictly play by the rules will look like sandbaggers.

[todgot]

I always quote an joke I heard sometime ago... What's the definition of a Sandbagger? Answer: Someone who just won a golf tournament. It's a frustrating part of playing in local tournaments and I fully expect someone to shoot a crazy number in every tournament I play. We often joke the real competition is for second place. I have noted a trend in tournaments. The championship flight will have the winner, then second place will be 1 or 2 shots back, then another shot back will be the next finisher, and so on. In the flights it will be, 1st place, then 10 shots back 2nd, then 1 shot back 3rd...

[Big C]

If the majority of members maintain a vanity cap, those who strictly play by the rules will look like sandbaggers.

Not really. Because you will be winning (or at least cashing) with scores near your "net par" for the course. No one is going to accuse you of being a sandbagger when you shoot a 96 as a 26 course handicap.

It's those clubs where you have to shoot a net 65 in order to contend that get a little frustrating for the honest golfer.

[rkim291968]

And those are there, too, but not as many.  They hurt their teammates when playing in team competition.   You can tell who they are b/c he or his team always seems to finish at the bottom.

But it's important to note that fellow golfers seem to be aware of who are "managing" their handicap, and who are vanity cappers.    They have been playing with these golfers for a long time, know their real playing level, when & how often they post their numbers (easy to check it out on database), etc..

[acetoolguy]

The flip side of the coin is this. My two best rounds have been in my clubs senior net club championships.  I wanted to win it, I practiced more leading up to it and maintained my focus throughout. So I came in 6 under my handicap both times. Won once. My friends know I post real scores, but others were pretty sure I sandbagged leading up to the tourney.

I just cant put in the time needed to drop my handicap from a 12 to 6 for the whole year. Wish I could.

[rkim291968]

The flip side of the coin is this. My two best rounds have been in my clubs senior net club championships.  I wanted to win it, I practiced more leading up to it and maintained my focus throughout. So I came in 6 under my handicap both times. Won once. My friends know I post real scores, but others were pretty sure I sandbagged leading up to the tourney.

I just cant put in the time needed to drop my handicap from a 12 to 6 for the whole year. Wish I could.

Sure, anyone can have a good day to win a tournament, or good month to win more than one.   I was referring to more permanent issue.  My club is particularly bad with same names wining tournaments (or finishing near the top) one after another.    People have been whispering and the committee had to do something about it.   How can a member post only 3 - 4 scores each year and continue to play club tournaments and win?   This is all you can play membership course and we are not in UK where only tournament scores count toward HI.   This particular golfer has been selectively posting his scores, hence the term "managing" handicap.   This is a real life example which I think (along with other examples) may have triggered the "warning" from the handicap committee.

[todgot]

Sure, anyone can have a good day to win a tournament, or good month to win more than one.   I was referring to more permanent issue.  My club is particularly bad with same names wining tournaments (or finishing near the top) one after another.    People have been whispering and the committee had to do something about it.   How can a member post only 3 - 4 scores each year and continue to play club tournaments and win?   This is all you can play membership course and we are not in UK where only tournament scores count toward HI.   This particular golfer has been selectively posting his scores, hence the term "managing" handicap.   This is a real life example which I think (along with other examples) may have triggered the "warning" from the handicap committee.

I feel your pain but it is really up to the club to do something about it... unfortunately most clubs just agree with you and shrug their shoulders. Usually it takes a big scandal or for them to be caught red handed cheating for anything to be done about it. Last year we had a group thrown out of our league for turning in incorrect score cards. The Pro would cut their handicap but they kept turning in the same scores... so he followed them one day and turns out the scores they were turning it weren't their actual scores. We also had a guy banned for having 2 GHIN numbers... one for tournament play, one for other. Run of the mill sandbagging is very hard to do anything about because you basically have to confront someone and call them a cheater... and you're relying on statistics which is circumstantial. We all have stories about sandbagging... but does anyone have a story about someone suffering any consequences for sandbagging?

[newtogolf]

Sure, anyone can have a good day to win a tournament, or good month to win more than one.   I was referring to more permanent issue.  My club is particularly bad with same names wining tournaments (or finishing near the top) one after another.    People have been whispering and the committee had to do something about it.   How can a member post only 3 - 4 scores each year and continue to play club tournaments and win?   This is all you can play membership course and we are not in UK where only tournament scores count toward HI.   This particular golfer has been selectively posting his scores, hence the term "managing" handicap.   This is a real life example which I think (along with other examples) may have triggered the "warning" from the handicap committee.

Our club requests we post nearly every round we play.  The system tracks the number of rounds we play and the number we post.  If that ratio falls out of range, the competition committee will issue a warning and if unheeded could make the golfer ineligible to compete in club tournaments.  Not only must we post a score but we also have to submit the score card in the pro shop for verification

[meenman]

OK kind of along the same lines - can anyone give an educated opinion if this is legit.

I played in a friends one day member / guest last week (fairly expensive club, real nice course)

Format was best 2 balls net out of the foursome. My course HC was a 22, my buddy was a 19, one of the other guys an 8 and I have no idea on the fourth. We shot 17 under.

The winning team was 33 under - just seemed a little low to me.

[rkim291968]

Our club requests we post nearly every round we play.  The system tracks the number of rounds we play and the number we post.  If that ratio falls out of range, the competition committee will issue a warning and if unheeded could make the golfer ineligible to compete in club tournaments.  Not only must we post a score but we also have to submit the score card in the pro shop for verification

Your club is in much better shape than mine.  We submit our own scores on-line and don't need to turn in our cards.   It's 100% honor system and human nature is such that a percentage of guys going to abuse it.   In two years I have been a member,. this is the 1st time the committee is doing something - a very mild gesture at that, too.   They "asked" members to record every round, and the club will now enter tournament scores in the system.   For casual rounds, members still don't have to turn in cards, and are on their own to submit scores.   So, I don't have much hope that things will improve drastically.

OK kind of along the same lines - can anyone give an educated opinion if this is legit.

I played in a friends one day member / guest last week (fairly expensive club, real nice course)

Format was best 2 balls net out of the foursome. My course HC was a 22, my buddy was a 19, one of the other guys an 8 and I have no idea on the fourth. We shot 17 under.

The winning team was 33 under - just seemed a little low to me.

For our current tournament, 20 under won it out of 7 teams.  But the team who won were consisted of two players suspected of sandbagging.

[mcanadiens]

I'm getting set to play in my first ever tournament next month and it occurs to me that I may be accused of sandbagging. I know I'm capable of shooting low 90s on our courses and might break 90 on a day where everything comes together. But many rounds are still over 100 and it's not a matter of not trying. Usually its trying too hard.

Of course, it's just as likely that the actual tournament rounds will end up being closer to the triple digits, but my day-to-day fluctuations can be pretty severe.

[newtogolf]

Your club is in much better shape than mine.  We submit our own scores on-line and don't need to turn in our cards.   It's 100% honor system and human nature is such that a percentage of guys going to abuse it.   In two years I have been a member,. this is the 1st time the committee is doing something - a very mild gesture at that, too.   They "asked" members to record every round, and the club will now enter tournament scores in the system.   For casual rounds, members still don't have to turn in cards, and are on their own to submit scores.   So, I don't have much hope that things will improve drastically.

For our current tournament, 20 under won it out of 7 teams.  But the team who won were consisted of two players suspected of sandbagging.

Sounds like your club is headed in the right direction, they are likely moving slowly because there's going to be some pushback, from both the vanity cappers and sandbaggers who won't appreciate having to be more accountable for their scores.

Hope things work out, there's nothing worse than being penalized for following the rules.

[rkim291968]

I'm getting set to play in my first ever tournament next month and it occurs to me that I may be accused of sandbagging. I know I'm capable of shooting low 90s on our courses and might break 90 on a day where everything comes together. But many rounds are still over 100 and it's not a matter of not trying. Usually its trying too hard.

Of course, it's just as likely that the actual tournament rounds will end up being closer to the triple digits, but my day-to-day fluctuations can be pretty severe.

No need to worry about it.  I had the same concern but big score swing is expected from bogey golfers.   But if you keep winning or doing well on handicap tournaments for extended period of time (problem I noticed in my club tournaments), people are gonna suspect.   But GHIN system is such that unless you are fast improving, things will even out.  I.e, in perfect world, people are going to take turns doing well in playing tournaments, some more so than others.   With my club, it's the same half dozen people we suspect that's taking all the trophies.    BTW, I can look up score history on-line on any of the members.  Some guys have submitted only 1/2 dozen scores for a year.   Which 1/2 dozen is he reporting is a question he needs to answer.

Sounds like your club is headed in the right direction, they are likely moving slowly because there's going to be some pushback, from both the vanity cappers and sandbaggers who won't appreciate having to be more accountable for their scores.

Hope things work out, there's nothing worse than being penalized for following the rules.

I don't have a huge hope and will continue to only play less serious tournaments (scramble, e.g).   There are a few tournaments the entry fee is too rich for me.

[Big Lex]

This is an area where it's easy to think people are cheating, but it's much harder to prove it.

My club is a great example: lots of people complain that certain people win all the time, and there are guys with 9 hcps who somehow seem to end up winning skills contests like closest to pin or longest drive with unusual regularity.

But I'm sure if you really studied these golfers at my club, it would be very hard to really find compelling evidence of cheating.

Now, when it comes to handicap tournaments where there is alot of money or prizes involved, and people bring in guests and so forth to play, I agree there is definitely a problem. I've heard of guys with 12 handicaps hitting 300 yard drives and shooting 75 in member guest tournaments at my club. Our pro told me that while it has been rare, he HAS had to occasionally change a club member's handicap because the committee determined the number and the posted scores did not reflect the player's true ability.

But for common, low $ nassau matches I play every week, I don't think there is significant sandbagging.

While I am sure there are people at every club who post falsely high scores to boost their hcp, I honestly believe it's MUCH more common for people to post incorrectly LOW numbers. This means that most golfers' hcps are too low for their ability, and when they play someone who posts honestly, they get killed.

I have been accused of sandbagging, but in reality I just easily beat alot of guys in my handicap range because most of them have unrealistic, vanity handicap numbers.

There is a guy at my club....won the club championship 20 years ago....has a beautiful swing, and is a gentleman, and a great guy. But for some reason, he just can't play anymore. I've never lost to this guy, not even close.....but when I search his name on ghin, I see he never posts anything above 85, and posts lots of rounds in the 70s. His handicap is 2-3 strokes lower than mine. In reality, if he played by USGA rules and counted every stroke, he has not broken 90 in the last 2 years I am certain.

He's an extreme example, but I see it all the time.....people are in their pocket on a hole during a match, and then they write down a bogey or a double on the card when they should have posted a 7. I played with another former club champ recently....he can still play, but he posted an 82 for a round when in reality he shot about 87, and seemed phobic about posting a double. On one hole I asked him his score and he even said "well, it was really a 6, but for my ego, put down 5."

Most of us know that if someone concedes a twelve footer so we can't show our partner the line, we aren't supposed to take 1 putt....but do we do it all the time when we rake away a difficult 4 footer because the hole is over?