Sandbagging in Club Tournaments

[newtogolf]

You have described the rule for unfinished holes, but you may have holes that aren't played at all in match play and for that the rule is different.  Let's say you close out a match 4 & 3 and do not play the rest of the holes.  In that case for the 3 holes you did not play you would score par plus any allowed hcap strokes (IOW, a net par), section 5-2b of the handicap manual. (I suspect you already well know this, but some might not and I'm just clarifying)

Those @newtogolf saw inflating their scores after the match was over should beware though:

As a complete aside, it is also interesting that if you play a match and win (or lose) 10 & 8 and do not play out the missing holes you can only post a 9 hole score.

Thanks Rich, that makes more sense.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adubya65

What are the odds of a 16 handicap shooting an even par 71 in the final round of his first club championship?  He shot 86 the first day which I can accept. Then net 55 day 2.

Hadn't posted a single round since April, all of which were in the 90's.  2 day net 125 to win by 4 shots over my buddy (a 14) that shot 80-77 (he's broken 80 many times but not in the past 2 years and has struggled most of the year and posted every score).

How do we fix this? Our club is not private and there's no real policing of who is posting and who isn't.

What are the odds of a LEGIT 16 handicap shooting 71 in the final round of a club championship? I'd say zero chance.

I hate to say it but you are wrong.  I shot my personal best the first time I ever broke 80.  I still have never even matched it since then, not in 26 years.  At the time I was also a 16 handicap, legitimate.  I hadn't placed in the money in a single tournament all that first year playing in about 10 tournaments before the club championship.  I shot 88-86 the first weekend, then came out the second weekend and shot a one over par 73 in the third round, then 78 in the final round and I also made my first hole in one.  Nobody accused me of cheating or sandbagging.  I'd played every tournament and played a lot of casual rounds with various men's club (public course) members, and they knew that I was on the cusp of playing better golf.  My game just happened to show up on the right weekend.  It happens.  Anyone who says it can't is just eating sour grapes. For the next almost 20 years I played to a 10-12 handicap and shot many rounds in the 70's on my home course, but I never again shot 73.

If someone did that then dropped back to being a hacker until shooting lights out in the next tournament, then you might have a legitimate gripe, but a one time exceptional round can happen, especially when a player has been gradually improving his game.  The guy Adubya65 is concerned with might bear watching if nobody in the club is familiar with his game, but it isn't automatic that he's a cheat.

[DaveP043]

The guy Adubya65 is concerned with might bear watching if nobody in the club is familiar with his game, but it isn't automatic that he's a cheat.

I agree with this, very low rounds do happen occasionally.  I know I once shot 74 with a legit 12 handicap in an interclub match, and took a little abuse for it.  The reason that I'm suspicious is that he apparently didn't post a score since April.  Its just inconceivable to me that someone didn't play a single round of golf for most of the summer, and then performed really well in a tournament.  I don't know @Adubya65 and I don't know the player in question, but if a player is playing and isn't posting his scores, then he has no business winning anything in a net event.

Which brings up a question, and perhaps @Adubya65 can check it out for us.  Has the player posted the rounds he shot in the tournament, and did he post them as tournament rounds?

[Adubya65]

I know he plays in a league every week (in fact, I subbed for him one night) and none of those rounds were ever posted. This is why I'm suspicious. No one just suddenly is that much better than they've ever done. I can see 79 or 80 as pulling one out of his ass, but even par on a course that the head pro has only done twice in 16 years?

His tournament scores were automatically posted by the course.  I had a long phone call with the owner/pro this morning about it. They're pissed. And it's not just that one guy. This has become far too frequent to the point where I heard some guys saying "I'm only gonna post my shit scores from now on" just to combat it.

We'll be working on ways to do it but it's an honorable game. If you want to cheat, that's on you.  My only point is that if you're not going to be honorable, go screw yourself and don't enter our tournaments.

[DaveP043]

I know he plays in a league every week (in fact, I subbed for him one night) and none of those rounds were ever posted. This is why I'm suspicious. No one just suddenly is that much better than they've ever done. I can see 79 or 80 as pulling one out of his ass, but even par on a course that the head pro has only done twice in 16 years?

His tournament scores were automatically posted by the course.  I had a long phone call with the owner/pro this morning about it. They're pissed. And it's not just that one guy. This has become far too frequent to the point where I heard some guys saying "I'm only gonna post my shit scores from now on" just to combat it.

We'll be working on ways to do it but it's an honorable game. If you want to cheat, that's on you.  My only point is that if you're not going to be honorable, go screw yourself and don't enter our tournaments.

You're doing the right thing, I'm guessing that the owner/pro serves as the handicap committee in this case, even though a club employee isn't supposed to be the committee chair.  I'd hope that the club, public or private, would get better participation in their tournaments if word gets around that everyone has a fair chance to win, because handicaps are required to be correct.  You might lose a few of the sandbaggers (or cheaters) but I'd hope you'd gain a lot more honest golfers.

[Adubya65]

There's no actual handicap committee right now. That was one of the things we talked about.

There are people that won't play because of this type of thing. Hopefully we'd lose the sandbaggers and get those others back.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adubya65

There's no actual handicap committee right now. That was one of the things we talked about.

There are people that won't play because of this type of thing. Hopefully we'd lose the sandbaggers and get those others back.

I'm confused.  Are these club-only handicaps or are they intended to be USGA compliant handicaps under the auspices of a club?

A handicap committee is not optional and you cannot have an official USGA index unless the issuing club meets the USGA requirements, one of which is that you must have a handicap committee.  If there is no handicap committee then the club is either making unlicensed use of the USGA trademarks and systems or they are licensed and are violating the terms of the license.

Quote:

An essential element of the USGA Handicap System is the Handicap Committee . Each golf club or authorized golf association utilizing the USGA Handicap System must appoint a Handicap Committee to ensure the integrity of each Handicap Index it issues. This Committee must make certain that the members comply with the USGA Handicap System .

And having a handicap committee is the second item on the checklist

[Adubya65]

It's a public course but to compete we must all have a WSGA handicap (Wisconsin) with the course as our home course.

I guess the course is the handicap committee right now by default. What I meant is we don't have a formal one with members as part of it currently.

[DaveP043]

@turtleback is right, the USGA rules require you to have a proper committee in order to have a valid USGA Handicap Index, and I'm nearly certain that the WSGA follows those USGA rules.  Even though its not in accordance with the USGA rules, I bet the situation at your home course is the same as at many other public golf courses.  I'd guess a lot of public course pros end up being the entire handicap committee.

[turtleback]

@turtleback is right, the USGA rules require you to have a proper committee in order to have a valid USGA Handicap Index, and I'm nearly certain that the WSGA follows those USGA rules.  Even though its not in accordance with the USGA rules, I bet the situation at your home course is the same as at many other public golf courses.  I'd guess a lot of public course pros end up being the entire handicap committee.

Which is specifically NOT OK according to the USGA.  From the H'cap Manual:

Handicap Committee

A "Handicap Committee" is the Committee of a golf club that ensures compliance with the USGA Handicap System, including peer review. A majority of the Handicap Committee, including the chairperson, must be members of the club; club employees may serve on the Handicap Committee, but an employee may not serve as chairperson.

. . . . . .

-1/1. Status of Owners and Employees

Q: In the definition of Handicap Committee, it states that an employee may not serve as Handicap Chairperson. Is the owner of a golf club considered an employee? Or an employee of a third party that assists in the operation

of a golf club? Or an employee of a municipality that owns/operates a golf course?

A: In each of these cases, as well as that of a club professional, the person referenced is in a position where pleasing club members is a key responsibility. This makes it difficult for such a person to play an impartial role. These "employees" are not eligible to chair the Handicap Committee of a golf club where they are "employed."

I do not doubt the accuracy of what you say, though.  I always got so much pleasure and enjoyment out of the game that I thought of my efforts in learning about the handicap system, getting certified by the SCGA as a chair, and serving as a handicap chairman for my old club as my ways of giving back.  From prior discussions I know you feel very similar.  But alas, there are too few of us.