NCAA Football 2023

[saevel25]

New update for the UM scandal.  

Quote

“Sources confirmed to ESPN that Stalions purchased tickets on both sides of the stadium — across from each bench — for Ohio State’s game with Penn State on Saturday. Michigan plays both teams in upcoming weeks. According to sources, the tickets purchased by Stalions were not used on Saturday. Stalions’ name emerged publicly in an ESPN story on Friday.”

Just so people know...

Quote

Having evidence that a staff member has been buying tickets for UM opponents for the past 3 years is not good. He should have no reason to buy tickets for those games. 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

He should have no reason to buy tickets for those games. 

I like chaos as much as the next guy but that is a dumb statement. You can scout a team without trying to steal signs.

[klineka]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

I like chaos as much as the next guy but that is a dumb statement. You can scout a team without trying to steal signs.

They can't film it as part of the scouting though, which is apparently what people did who sat in those seats purchased by the Michigan staffer. 

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38727023/u-m-staffer-bought-tickets-11-schools

 

 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, klineka said:

They can't film it as part of the scouting though, which is apparently what people did who sat in those seats purchased by the Michigan staffer. 

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38727023/u-m-staffer-bought-tickets-11-schools

That’s not what Matt said. I’m only reacting to what he said. There are plenty of reasons to buy tickets.

[saevel25]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

I like chaos as much as the next guy but that is a dumb statement. You can scout a team without trying to steal signs.

Per NCAA, they are not allowed to do in-person scouting (stealing signs or not) for any future opponent they face in the same season. So, they can't scout teams. At least how I read the rule. They may be able to scout an opponent if they are facing them next season. For teams like OSU and MSU, who they face them every year, there is no legal way to send a person to that game. There is nothing in the rule specific to stealing signs or videotaping. 

11 hours ago, iacas said:

That’s not what Matt said. I’m only reacting to what he said. There are plenty of reasons to buy tickets.

I agree that the assistant from UM could possibly be purchasing the tickets for other reasons than illegal scouting. 

Currently, there are statements that surveillance footage of those seats shows people recording the game or opposing sideline. Also, that assistant purchased two tickets at the PSU and OSU game this previous Saturday. Both seats were with great view of each sideline for illegal scouting. These seats went unused during the game. 

[dennyjones]

6 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Currently, there are statements that surveillance footage of those seats shows people recording the game or opposing sideline. Also, that assistant purchased two tickets at the PSU and OSU game this previous Saturday. Both seats were with great view of each sideline for illegal scouting. These seats went unused during the game. 

Huh?

[saevel25]

6 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

Huh?

He bought tickets for many games. 

I was just stating how all of a sudden, once he got caught, now the two seats he bought for the OSU v PSU were empty. No one showed up. 

[The Flush]

 

[StuM]

Although I agree that making a swift decision and implementing any punishment as soon as possible limits risk of the "*" next to future games if the win get vacated or it bowl games are banned, but pressuring to impose sanctions quickly, before the investigation is complete, is not the way to go.  The pressure should be to complete the investigation quickly and then impose sanctions, if warranted.  I do hate that future teams may suffer the sanctions from past issues and it would be best to get this over quickly, just just make sure the investigation is complete.  I really think this UM scandal should not take that long to investigate.  They say they have video & paper trail.  Just do the interviews and get it over with.

Big Ten coaches push for punishment of Michigan in recent video call

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Big Ten coaches are lobbying for Michigan to be immediately punished by the conference.

 

 

[saevel25]

The Big10, should require UM to have their call sheets reviewed before each game and any call sheet with opposing hand signs should be confiscated. Of course, they should be notified that this would happen. The Big10 should bar Stallions from any future games until the NCAA investigation is completed. 

I think those are two simple actions that can put the other schools at ease about UM possible cheating. 

The issue is the NCAA procedure is that UM is given x number of days to reply to the notice they send them. This is going into the offseason and could possibly go into next year. The process is SLOW. 

[klineka]

xfsd

7 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The Big10 should bar Stallions from any future games until the NCAA investigation is completed. 

I think those are two simple actions that can put the other schools at ease about UM possible cheating. 

He's been suspended without pay since this started. I might be wrong here, but I highly doubt that even if he was still attending other Big10 games on his own that if he did eventually return as a staffer once the investigation is complete that Michigan would have any interest in using any intel he gathered while on suspension.

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The issue is the NCAA procedure is that UM is given x number of days to reply to the notice they send them. This is going into the offseason and could possibly go into next year. The process is SLOW. 

There's no reason IMO for it to be that slow. It's easily avoidable and if Michigan were to win it all this year there would undoubtedly be an asterisk next to that. If the video and paper trail are as solid/complete as they appear to be, then there's absolutely no reason why this should drag into next year. A lot of the video and paper trail stuff isn't even coming from Michigan so the NCAA procedure about giving Michigan X number of days to reply to notices shouldn't significantly impact the timing of the investigation/decision/punishment, IMO.

[DeadMan]

1 hour ago, klineka said:

the NCAA procedure about giving Michigan X number of days to reply to notices shouldn't significantly impact the timing of the investigation/decision/punishment, IMO.

NCAA rules give Michigan 90 days to respond from a notice of allegations. Only after that point can the NCAA issue any punishment. If the NCAA doesn't follow those rules, whatever they do will get tossed in court immediately. The NCAA isn't going to change that for this case. Also, Michigan hasn't received a notice of allegations in the first place. 90 days from now is already past the national title game, so it's not happening this season.

I also don't think this season would necessarily be impacted. Michigan hasn't played a close enough game (or a good enough team) where this would make any difference. All of the teams are now on notice about sign stealing and can change their signals, go to wristbands, or do whatever they need to. Apparently Michigan's sign stealing was an open secret such that every team this year was doing something different with their signs. Stallions is not coaching, and I'm pretty sure Michigan isn't using his intel any more. If Michigan beats Penn State and Ohio State, are we really going to look at the 31-7 Rutgers game and say the result is illegitimate enough to keep Michigan out of the playoff?

[klineka]

1 hour ago, DeadMan said:

NCAA rules give Michigan 90 days to respond from a notice of allegations. Only after that point can the NCAA issue any punishment. If the NCAA doesn't follow those rules, whatever they do will get tossed in court immediately. The NCAA isn't going to change that for this case. Also, Michigan hasn't received a notice of allegations in the first place. 90 days from now is already past the national title game, so it's not happening this season.

I wasn't aware of the 90 days from notice of allegations piece, but in that case then that's absurd that the NCAA hasn't given Michigan a notice of allegations yet. It's been 2 weeks since this information became public that the NCAA was looking into it, so likely even longer that they actually were looking into it. Just a "notice of allegations" doesn't mean they are guilty, but I don't see how/why someone would actively be investigating, interviewing, researching, etc without formally declaring a notice of allegations. 

1 hour ago, DeadMan said:

I also don't think this season would necessarily be impacted. Michigan hasn't played a close enough game (or a good enough team) where this would make any difference. All of the teams are now on notice about sign stealing and can change their signals, go to wristbands, or do whatever they need to. Apparently Michigan's sign stealing was an open secret such that every team this year was doing something different with their signs. Stallions is not coaching, and I'm pretty sure Michigan isn't using his intel any more. If Michigan beats Penn State and Ohio State, are we really going to look at the 31-7 Rutgers game and say the result is illegitimate enough to keep Michigan out of the playoff?

Sure this season could absolutely be impacted. If the NCAA reached out to Michigan now and informed them that a potential postseason ban, vacating wins, etc is coming for them (but not officially announcing the punishment since they'd still be within the 90 day window) then Michigan could potentially self-impose a punishment that might lessen or eliminate the one that the NCAA would offer. Pretty much exactly what happened at the beginning of this season, Michigan suspended Harbaugh for the first 3 games this season to appease the NCAA while their investigation was still on-going but it became apparent that he would have likely gotten a 4 game suspension from the NCAA had the university not suspended him for the 3 games.

While I don't necessarily think that is what will happen, I do think there is a chance that this season could get impacted. Or at the very least it will have an asterisk next to it by many people especially if Michigan were to make the playoff/national championship, which is a very real possibility.

[DeadMan]

1 hour ago, klineka said:

2 hours ago, DeadMan said:

I wasn't aware of the 90 days from notice of allegations piece, but in that case then that's absurd that the NCAA hasn't given Michigan a notice of allegations yet. It's been 2 weeks since this information became public that the NCAA was looking into it, so likely even longer that they actually were looking into it. Just a "notice of allegations" doesn't mean they are guilty, but I don't see how/why someone would actively be investigating, interviewing, researching, etc without formally declaring a notice of allegations. 

The way the process works is investigation > notice of allegations > penalty. The NCAA doesn’t do the notice without the investigation done. And for this, they probably want to talk to every Michigan coach, which isn’t happening right now. They also probably want to review emails, which isn’t a simple thing to do. The NCAA almost certainly wants to pin this all on Harbaugh, and they can’t do that with what’s out there publicly now. 

[saevel25]

This is where it is a competitive advantage to steal signs the way UM did. Not just knowing the signs, but as the Purdue coach mentioned, ititss like teaching their team a new language. I am not sure what the NFL is like, Put in college you are highly regulated on the number of practices and how much the coaches can interact with the players. Having to carve out time to teach an entirely new signal system is time they can't prepare or practice for UM. 

 

[DeadMan]

He certainly has no incentive to overstate that, either… especially since it could be solved with going to wristbands with close to zero practice. 

[saevel25]

34 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

He certainly has no incentive to overstate that, either… especially since it could be solved with going to wristbands with close to zero practice. 

You still have to signal in what to look up on the wrist bands. The only true way to make it fool proof is to allow headsets in the helmet, or you can run the QB over to the sideline on every play to get the play or sub someone in with the play on each play. Which, is a competitive advantage because it allows for less manipulation of the play clock. Which in college is a big strategy. Also, keeping certain defensive personnel on the field by going fast pace is a strategy that would be negated because when you sub the defense must be allowed to sub as well. 

Also, this isn't about sign stealing. UM is allowed to steal signs during the game in which they are playing. It is much harder to get the magnitude of data during a game than it is when you buy tickets to every home or away game a team you are facing to steal the entire playbook. 

[DeadMan]

11 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

You still have to signal in what to look up on the wrist bands.

Yes, but you can’t decode it without the wristbands. You can even switch out the wristbands every quarter if you’re worried about them getting stolen. It takes staff time, but that’s pretty much an unlimited resource in college football.  
 

11 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

UM is allowed to steal signs during the game in which they are playing.

They are allowed to steal signs, period. They aren’t allowed to scout in person. They can steal signs off the TV broadcast, for example. 

 

11 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

is much harder to get the magnitude of data during a game than it is when you buy tickets to every home or away game a team you are facing to steal the entire playbook. 

This is question begging. How much harder is it? There are articles out there saying it’s easy to get signs off TV if you want to. OSU has 2 sign stealers doing just that (allegedly :)). How much of a competitive advantage is it really to live scout? And how much did it benefit Michigan vs. if they followed all of the rules? TCU knew about the sign stealing and Michigan’s play calls were still pretty good in that game. Every team in 2023 Michigan has played has apparently been aware of Michigan’s sign stealing and dealt with it, and Michigan’s closest game has been 24 points. There are plenty of games in college football where teams run the same play over and over and everyone knows it coming and it doesn’t matter. This includes more than a few Michigan-OSU games. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by DeadMan