Violation of 3 Minute Lost Ball Rule

[AH PARENT]

I was at a High School District Team Championship event and witnessed the following.

A player teed off and could not find his ball.  Looked for about 5 minutes and then started to head back to the tee box.  People started yelling that the ball was found.  He returned to the found ball (in bounds) and chipped it to the green.  He then was taken back to the tee box on a cart by his coach where he hit a 2nd ball.  He played out both balls (scored 4 on the first ball and 5, including a 1 stroke penalty, on the 2nd).  The coach sought out the club pro for a ruling.  The club pro ruled that the score from his original ball would stand (the 4).

The player completed his score card accordingly and signed it (as did his opponent which is customary in HS).  When the events became known the to opposing coach, he argued that the club pro was wrong and also not in authority to make this decision.  He asserted that the player (actually his own and the kid who originally lost the ball) signed an incorrect card and this the kid who hit the lost ball should be DQ'd (but not his player).

The PIAA was called and they ruled that the club pro's ruling would stand.

The kid's (who lost the ball) team won and advanced to the next round.  This team would have won whether the 4 or 5 counted, but if the player was DQ'd, his team would have lost. The other team was eliminated from state competition based on the ruling.

Thoughts on this?

[iacas]

First, let me clearly state this: I hate the PIAA.

What I'm hearing is this, and please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to call player A the one whose ball was lost, and Player B the marker for Player A. I may abbreviate them as A and B.

• Player A hit his ball on a hole.
• Player A did not find his ball on the hole for about five minutes
• Player A was returning to the tee when it was found.
• Player A played a shot with the ball, then returned to the tee to play another one.
• Player A scored a 4 with the original ball and a 5 with the second ball.
• Player A's coach sought out the head pro, who deemed the score with the original ball counted, and Player B signed the scorecard along with Player A.
• Player B's coach protested when he was made aware of the issue.
• The PIAA was called and sided with head pro, and the score made with the original ball stood.

This part was confusing to me:

Quote

He [Player B's coach?] asserted that the player (actually his own and the kid who originally lost the ball) signed an incorrect card and this the kid who hit the lost ball should be DQ'd (but not his player).

Are you saying that Player B and Player A signed an incorrect scorecard? Is this sentence the same as what you wrote: "Player B's coach asserted that his player, Player B, and Player A, the player who lost the golf ball but then played it, signed an incorrect scorecard"?

Other questions I have:

• Is the bullet list above correct? If not, what's wrong?
• Did anyone keep a timer? How certain is anyone that the search was > 3 minutes?
• Did Player A's coach relay the time to the head pro when the head pro made the ruling?
• Was the head pro listed as "the committee" or even a member of "the committee"? Who was "the committee" for this event?
• Did Player A announce at any time his intention to "play two balls"? It used to be Rule 3-3 and is now 20.1c(3).
• Does the 4 include the first stroke made from the tee? You said only a "penalty stroke" but when you lose a ball, you're hitting three from the tee. This is more curiosity than important.
• High school events in PA are typically the low 4 scores out of 5, so if the one player was DQed, they would still have four scores to count, so could you clarify what you mean by "if the player was DQed his team would have lost?"

Some statements I'll make based on what I know and some assumptions I hope you can clarify:

• The PIAA is not a ruling body of golf. Their input was wholly unnecessary and inappropriate. They aren't rules officials, they're administrators of high school athletics.
• The USGA has a hotline that should have been called: 908-326-1850.
• I imagine that Player A's coach left out the "five minutes" part when talking to the head pro.
• I imagine nobody had an actual timer going.
• You must announce your intent to play a second ball BEFORE you make a stroke at another ball.
• If the ball was found after 3:00, and played, normally a player is DQed as soon as he tees off on the next hole. This case is a bit stranger because he played out the hole with a ball from the next tee.
• The head pro was likely not listed as being a member of the committee and thus had no real standing to make a ruling.
• The Rules of Golf now allow for penalties a player didn't know they incurred to be added after the fact without DQing the player. They just add the penalty strokes.
• Player B's team likely still would have lost because I imagine Player A's score, even with penalty strokes, would have still been lower than Player B's team. Plus I'm still confused about the 4 out of 5 scoring.

[RayG]

Other Team got screwed. 3 minutes is the rule. There is no "fudge factor"- Pro isn't the Rules guy. Did he rule it's good because he didn't want to "traumatize" the kid? Well, tough nookies bub, Rule was breached, so you take the consequences. 

[AH PARENT]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

First, let me clearly state this: I hate the PIAA.

What I'm hearing is this, and please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to call player A the one whose ball was lost, and Player B the marker for Player A. I may abbreviate them as A and B.

• Player A hit his ball on a hole.
• Player A did not find his ball on the hole for about five minutes
• Player A was returning to the tee when it was found.
• Player A played a shot with the ball, then returned to the tee to play another one.
• Player A scored a 4 with the original ball and a 5 with the second ball.
• Player A's coach sought out the head pro, who deemed the score with the original ball counted, and Player B signed the scorecard along with Player A.
• Player B's coach protested when he was made aware of the issue.
• The PIAA was called and sided with head pro, and the score made with the original ball stood.

This part was confusing to me:

Are you saying that Player B and Player A signed an incorrect scorecard? Is this sentence the same as what you wrote: "Player B's coach asserted that his player, Player B, and Player A, the player who lost the golf ball but then played it, signed an incorrect scorecard"?

Other questions I have:

• Is the bullet list above correct? If not, what's wrong?
• Did anyone keep a timer? How certain is anyone that the search was > 3 minutes?
• Did Player A's coach relay the time to the head pro when the head pro made the ruling?
• Was the head pro listed as "the committee" or even a member of "the committee"? Who was "the committee" for this event?
• Did Player A announce at any time his intention to "play two balls"? It used to be Rule 3-3 and is now 20.2c(3).
• Does the 4 include the first stroke made from the tee? You said only a "penalty stroke" but when you lose a ball, you're hitting three from the tee. This is more curiosity than important.
• High school events in PA are typically the low 4 scores out of 5, so if the one player was DQed, they would still have four scores to count, so could you clarify what you mean by "if the player was DQed his team would have lost?"

Some statements I'll make based on what I know and some assumptions I hope you can clarify:

• The PIAA is not a ruling body of golf. Their input was wholly unnecessary and inappropriate. They aren't rules officials, they're administrators of high school athletics.
• The USGA has a hotline that should have been called: 908-326-1850.
• I imagine that Player A's coach left out the "five minutes" part when talking to the head pro.
• I imagine nobody had an actual timer going.
• You must announce your intent to play a second ball BEFORE you make a stroke at another ball.
• If the ball was found after 3:00, and played, normally a player is DQed as soon as he tees off on the next hole. This case is a bit stranger because he played out the hole with a ball from the next tee.
• The head pro was likely not listed as being a member of the committee and thus had no real standing to make a ruling.
• The Rules of Golf now allow for penalties a player didn't know they incurred to be added after the fact without DQing the player. They just add the penalty strokes.
• Player B's team likely still would have lost because I imagine Player A's score, even with penalty strokes, would have still been lower than Player B's team. Plus I'm still confused about the 4 out of 5 scoring.

The bullet points are correct, except I would say that the PIAA deferred to the club-pro, not "sided" with them.

The coach of the player who had lost his ball conceded to the head pro that it was longer than 3 minutes that they looked.  That point was never in dispute.

Don't know about any "committee".  

Yes, intention to play 2 balls was announced.

If both players who signed the card were DQd, the remaining 4 players scores would be used to determine the team that won and it would have been the other team.

Ball 1....Tee Shot, Chip, 2-putt = 4

Ball 2....Penalty stroke for going back to tee...tee shot, chip, 2-putt = 5

This occurred on the 18th hole.

Hope that helps.....

[iacas]

1 minute ago, AH PARENT said:

The bullet points are correct, except I would say that the PIAA deferred to the club-pro, not "sided" with them.

Okay.

1 minute ago, AH PARENT said:

The coach of the player who had lost his ball conceded to the head pro that it was longer than 3 minutes that they looked.  That point was never in dispute.

Then the score with the first ball could not count. It was lost.

1 minute ago, AH PARENT said:

Don't know about any "committee".

It's important and should be listed on the rules sheet for the day or something. I'm aware that HS events are often not very well thought out or run very well, but… still.

1 minute ago, AH PARENT said:

Yes, intention to play 2 balls was announced.

When? Before any subsequent shots were played, or after he hit his "lost" ball?

1 minute ago, AH PARENT said:

If both players who signed the card were DQd, the remaining 4 players scores would be used to determine the team that won and it would have been the other team.

The marker is not DQed for signing an incorrect scorecard. Only the Player whose score is on that card.

So are you saying that:

• The format was the best 4 out of 5 scores counted.
• If Player A was DQed, the 4 out of 5 scores that did count would not have resulted in a win.

?

If the player scored a six instead of a 4, would they have won? Or would the outcome have been different?

1 minute ago, AH PARENT said:

Ball 1....Tee Shot, Chip, 2-putt = 4

Ball 2....Penalty stroke for going back to tee...tee shot, chip, 2-putt = 5

No, Player A scored a six with the second ball.

1. Lost ball (the stroke he made at the first ball).
2. Penalty stroke (stroke and distance).
3. Tee shot.
4. Chip.
5. Putt one.
6. Putt two.

---

Essentially, it sounds like a whole bunch of people screwed up, but the kid would likely be saved and thus his team saved because he did complete the hole with a valid ball. He took a six, and he may be given an extra penalty for some procedural breaches, but he did complete the hole with a valid ball, so he has a score.

If Player A's team won by more than a few shots, I think Player A's team would still be the winner even if the Rules were applied correctly, because the most you're looking at is about a four-shot swing (two from correctly scoring a 6 with the second ball, penalties for any procedural breaches, which might even be just one stroke, but I don't want to spend time thinking about it much if A's team won by 12 shots or something).

I sent you an email, too, @AH PARENT, if you could look at it and get back to me, I'd appreciate it. I'll help as much as I can.

[AH PARENT]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Okay.

Then the score with the first ball could not count. It was lost.

It's important and should be listed on the rules sheet for the day or something. I'm aware that HS events are often not very well thought out or run very well, but… still.

When? Before any subsequent shots were played, or after he hit his "lost" ball?

The marker is not DQed for signing an incorrect scorecard. Only the Player whose score is on that card.

So are you saying that:

• The format was the best 4 out of 5 scores counted.
• If Player A was DQed, the 4 out of 5 scores that did count would not have resulted in a win.

?

If the player scored a six instead of a 4, would they have won? Or would the outcome have been different?

No, Player A scored a six with the second ball.

1. Lost ball (the stroke he made at the first ball).
2. Penalty stroke (stroke and distance).
3. Tee shot.
4. Chip.
5. Putt one.
6. Putt two.

---

Essentially, it sounds like a whole bunch of people screwed up, but the kid would likely be saved and thus his team saved because he did complete the hole with a valid ball. He took a six, and he may be given an extra penalty for some procedural breaches, but he did complete the hole with a valid ball, so he has a score.

If Player A's team won by more than a few shots, I think Player A's team would still be the winner even if the Rules were applied correctly, because the most you're looking at is about a four-shot swing (two from correctly scoring a 6 with the second ball, penalties for any procedural breaches, which might even be just one stroke, but I don't want to spend time thinking about it much if A's team won by 12 shots or something).

He announced his intention to play 2 balls before hitting his 2nd shot with found ball (which was done before going back to the tee to play the 2nd ball).

Correct, if player A was DQd, his team would have lost.  As scored, his team won by 3 strokes.  The other team's 5th player beat Player A's team's 5th player by 15 strokes.  If player A's score on 18 was 6 (instead of 4), his team would have won by 1.  If he was assigned an additional penalty stroke, the top 4 would have tied.  Tie-breaker is player 5 which would mean the other team would have won.

Yes, format is best four out of five.

 

[iacas]

If he announced his intention before playing a subsequent shot, then I think he incurs no procedural breach penalties, he scored a 6 with the second ball played, and his team still wins by 1.

And it would have been useful to know in the OP that the hole was the 18th as (assuming it’s the last full of the round and it wasn’t a shotgun start) there is no subsequent tee shot on the next hole which changes the limit for how long a player has to correct his mistake.

Since it now seems he played two balls with the correct procedure, it doesn’t really matter.

[AH PARENT]

Thank you

[DaveP043]

I was reading this yesterday, but didn't have a chance to respond.  I'm glad I waited to see the additional information provided, it clarifies things a good bit.  I see a few "problems", but the biggest issue to me was the apparent lack of a defined (and knowledgeable) Committee to provide rulings. 

First, both Player A and his coach SHOULD understand the 3-minute time limit for a search, the Original Ball WAS lost.  But accepting their lack of such knowledge, I can understand uncertainty as to whether to play the Original Ball or whether Stroke and Distance for a Lost Ball was required.  So it makes sense that they'd play 2 balls, to make sure they had at least one ball played correctly.  But I'm a little skeptical that they'd know a more intricate rule like 20.1c(3) while not knowing the time limit for searching.

Following that, they reported to an apparent "authority figure", the Club Pro.  HE should also know the search time limit, HE should have told Player A that the Original Ball was indeed Lost per the Rules, and that the S&D ball was the one to count for score.  But he didn't.  I have run across club professionals who are very proficient with the rules, and some who are blissfully unaware of even the basics.  But back to Player A, he posted his score after getting a ruling from someone he reasonably believed had the authority to issue such a ruling.  He certainly didn't deserve a DQ.

But first and foremost, the organizers should have defined a Committee for rulings.  Perhaps they did identify the club pro that way, we don't know.  I have officiated at a couple of high-school district competitions, and their grasp of the details involved running a competition is pretty flimsy.  There hasn't been a defined committee, there's been no written notice to players defining local rules, etc.  When I compare to both the State Golf Association and area PGA events I've worked at, there's a huge difference.  

[pganapathy]

Actually a very simple thing.  Once the player had passed 3 minutes, he should have declared it a lost ball and hit a second.  Given that he didn't do so, the only way he could have played the first ball was with a ruling from the tournament committee/club pro.  In this case, the pro was wrong in his ruling, but once made, it stands and the player cannot be penalised (stroke) or DQ'd because he signed his card in good faith after the ruling.

I actually don't understand why the Pro got the ruling wrong, especially if he was told about the 3 minute plus search time or was there some ambiguity about how long the actual search went on.

[iacas]

27 minutes ago, pganapathy said:

Actually a very simple thing.  Once the player had passed 3 minutes, he should have declared it a lost ball and hit a second.

No. There's no such thing as "declaring" a lost ball.

27 minutes ago, pganapathy said:

In this case, the pro was wrong in his ruling, but once made, it stands and the player cannot be penalised (stroke) or DQ'd because he signed his card in good faith after the ruling.

Also not really true - the Committee can put forth the correct ruling since the player played two balls.

See 20.2d:

d. When Wrong Rulings Will Be Corrected

If a ruling by a referee or the Committee is later found to be wrong:

• The ruling will be corrected if possible under the Rules.

• If it is too late to do so, the wrong ruling stands.

If a player takes an action in breach of a Rule based on a reasonable misunderstanding of a referee’s or Committee’s instruction during a round or while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a (such as lifting a ball in play when not allowed under the Rules), there is no penalty and the instruction is treated like a wrong ruling.

[p1n9183]

When you play 2 balls you need to choose one before hitting them. In case both are legit, the one you chooses counts as your score for that hole. If you fail to choose one I don't remember the penalty but you get at least a couple of strokes or even DQ's.
You can assume that everybody would choose the 1st ball but it is not implied, so you need to call it out loud. Some people take advantage of this because when they shoot a lower score with the 2nd ball they discard the 1st. 

Did he call his preferred ball?   

 

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

When you play 2 balls you need to choose one before hitting them. In case both are legit, the one you chooses counts as your score for that hole. If you fail to choose one I don't remember the penalty but you get at least a couple of strokes or even DQ's.

No. That's not true:

Quote

• The player should choose which ball will count if the Rules allow the procedure used for that ball, by announcing that choice to his or her marker or to another player before making a stroke.

• If the player does not choose in time, the ball played first is treated as the ball chosen by default.

 So… the original ball was the ball he "chose" by default.

16 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

You can assume that everybody would choose the 1st ball but it is not implied, so you need to call it out loud. Some people take advantage of this because when they shoot a lower score with the 2nd ball they discard the 1st.

The rest of the Rule is:

Quote

(4) Committee Decision on Score for Hole. When a player plays two balls under (3), the Committee will decide the player’s score for the hole in this way:

• The score with the ball chosen (whether by the player or by default) counts if the Rules allow the procedure used for that ball.

• If the Rules do not allow the procedure used for that ball, the score with the other ball played counts if the Rules allow the procedure used for that other ball.

• If the Rules do not allow the procedures used for each of the two balls, the score with the ball chosen (whether by the player or by default) counts unless there was a serious breach in playing that ball from a wrong place, in which case the score with the other ball counts.

• If there was a serious breach in playing each ball from a wrong place, the player is disqualified.

• All strokes with the ball that does not count (including strokes made and any penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count in the player’s score for the hole.

In other words, if the Rules allowed the player to do what he did with the chosen ball, that score stands.

If they don't, but the other ball was played under the Rules, then that ball counts.

Even if you don't play either ball under the Rules, but only the chosen ball was a serious breach (as this one would be), you get to count the score from the other ball… counting penalty strokes from playing that ball.

---

In other words, 20.1c(3) is really, really protective of the players. They're not penalized for choosing to play two balls, even when they're wrong about their options (as this player was in playing a lost ball).

You're only DQed if both balls resulted in a serious breach… which is pretty much to be expected.

[AH PARENT]

13 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

When you play 2 balls you need to choose one before hitting them. In case both are legit, the one you chooses counts as your score for that hole. If you fail to choose one I don't remember the penalty but you get at least a couple of strokes or even DQ's.
You can assume that everybody would choose the 1st ball but it is not implied, so you need to call it out loud. Some people take advantage of this because when they shoot a lower score with the 2nd ball they discard the 1st. 

Did he call his preferred ball?   

 

I didn't hear it myself, but the opposing coach who was disputing the situation with the 3-minute rule, did concede from the onset of his argument that player A followed all appropriate rules for playing the 2nd ball.  His only dispute was that the score from the 2nd ball was the correct one (not the first ball as ruled by the club pro), thus the player signed an incorrect card and should be DQd.   

[iacas]

Just now, AH PARENT said:

His only dispute was that the score from the 2nd ball was the correct one (not the first ball as ruled by the club pro), thus the player signed an incorrect card and should be DQd.   

As noted earlier, he's likely wrong about that. (I'm still saying "likely" because I wasn't there and can't vouch for the 100% accuracy of the timing of things, who did what, etc.)

If a player signs a card that the "authority" (should be The Committee, which the head pro was apparently acting like he was) says is correct, it's not on the player anymore. The Committee can (and should) go back in and adjust the score, if there's still time to do so (i.e. competitors are still around, final results not given out), but the two strokes wouldn't have affected the outcome here.

Players are DQed when they knowingly write a score down for a hole that's lower than what they know they took on the hole.

The 2019 Rules of Golf changes even removed the additional penalty for not including penalty strokes if you didn't know you'd incurred them.

Player A didn't knowingly take a 6 and write down a 4. He was told he scored a 4.

[NZ Golfer]

Made a dumb mistake today in CLUB CHAMPS matchplay which I lost 1/1 .... on the 10th hole I hit a fade that when over to the next fairway couldn't find my ball(first time ever as is usually very easy to find in this location) so walked back 400yards and teed off and brilliant drive down the middle ... when I approached my Provisional shot here only a few yards off the fairway was my first shot(must have hit tree and hit back toward fairway) ... I said to my competitor wow here is my first shot I'll play this rather than Provis ... so I played that and played it out for a half on the hole then my competitor then said going down the next hole I don't think you should have played that first ball we looked for longer than 3mins it was classified as lost ?????(he somehow walked right past it and never seen it ???) should have played Provis ,, so he rang Golf Pro and yes I lost the hole. .... now I know ..if you cant find ball in 3mins its gone

[Rulesman]

6 hours ago, NZ Golfer said:

 now I know ..if you cant find ball in 3mins its gone

That's just how a Lost ball is defined in the Rules.  😉

The status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or their caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it. A ball does not become lost as a result of the player declaring it to be lost.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Rulesman

[NZ Golfer]

2 hours ago, Rulesman said:

That's just how a Lost ball is defined in the Rules.  😉

The status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or their caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it. A ball does not become lost as a result of the player declaring it to be lost.

Yes .. funny thing was as I've done the same shot 100+ times before its a barren rough with just a couple blue gum trees never a lost ball... was dumbfounded as competitor come from that direction

 my competitor of course said I should walk back the 300yards and tee another off a provis ..and he basically stood within a few yards of my first ball for like several min's just off right side the fairway short minor rough(the ball stuck out like dogs balls!!) ..he accidentally? dropped my headcover from my bag as he walked off and dragged my trundler over to my Provis ball ...

which is only reason I seen my first ball as I turned around looking for it to fit to my driver  (otherwise I would have headed directly to the Provis ball and played my fourth 90 yards out middle of the fairway) 

He hit his second into a greenside front high lipped bunker as I walked back to my bag he had already played a MIRCLE? third bunker shot 30yrds to within couple yard to the hole well protected from a muti dipping muti direction green... 

Once I seen my first ball I turn and stated here's my first ?? he was surprised ... so I'll just play my first ? thumbs up from him .... then after we Halfed the hole he recalled the rules I'd stupidly forgot (Never again!!!!) 

I lost the match 1/1 he won with the last putt .. one basic stupid mistake could have seen a play-off 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by NZ Golfer