Pines Showdown - Mid- Vs. Southern vs. Needles

[iacas]

That's just two courses. On this list, as the mood strikes me right now, I'm going to pick the best holes 1-18 on these three courses. I could go into a LOT of detail, but I'm going to keep each one short. On purpose. Because otherwise I'd be here forever, writing, and also because my mood will lead to difference choices in a week, probably. Or a day. Or an hour.

Hole 1) All three are strong opening holes. Mid-Pines is the toughest. Southern Pines is the easiest and somewhat the most fun. Pine Needles is a par five with a tough second. I'm going with Pine Needles. PN 1, SP 0, MP 0.

Hole 2) I've never really liked the second hole at Mid-Pines. It's just a really tough shot early in the round. Pine Needles has a tougher par four. Southern Pines has a good, strong par five made better by the added length (so you don't get way to the bottom of the hill). PN 1, SP 1, MP 0.

Hole 3) A good par three at Southern Pines. A tougher par four at Mid-Pines. A great short par three at Pine Needles wins it. PN 2, SP 1, MP 0.

Hole 4) A classic Mid-Pines short hole with a tree short right that messes with people. A solid but unspectacular par four at Pine Needles. A good and kinda similar par four at Southern Pines. MP gets its first win. PN 2, SP 1, MP 1.

Hole 5) A testy par three at Pine Needles. A good par five at Mid-Pines and Southern Pines. Mid-Pines is on a roll here. PN 2, SP 1, MP 2.

Hole 6) A so-so par four at Pine Needles up and over a crest and downhill to a green. A good healthy par four at Southern Pines that bends to the right. Mid-Pines has another par five in a row that is… meh. Southern Pines takes it. PN 2, SP 2, MP 2. 

Hole 7) Southern Pines has a par three perched on a ledge. Pine Needles has a back-and-forth mirror par four of sorts. Mid-Pines has a mid-length par four. Southern Pines surges into the lead. PN 2, SP 3, MP 2.

Hole 8) Southern Pines has a downhill par four to a great green. Pine Needles has a tidy par four bending slightly right. Mid-Pines has a semi-meh par three. Southern Pines is really flexing now. PN 2, SP 4, MP 2.

Hole 9) A long par three at Southern Pines. Pine Needles has a par four along a waste area to a tremendous green. Mid-Pines has a shorter par three. Pine Needles takes it on the strength of the green. PN 3, SP 4, MP 2.

Hole 10) Southern Pines has a good par four, though unspectacular. Pine Needles has a good 90° dogleg left par five. Mid-Pines has a solid uphill-then-flat par five. Things narrow up a bit… PN 3, SP 4, MP 3.

Hole 11) Southern Pines has a semi-drivable par four with a hellish green (I've seen balls roll so far off the green after barely getting on…). Pine Needles has a good par four. Mid-Pines has a decent par three. Southern Pines takes this one, as I'm still unsure of the best way to play this hole. PN 3, SP 5, MP 3.

Hole 12) Southern Pines has a good par four. Pine Needles has a good par four, too. Mid-Pines takes it with a great, sweeping dogleg left par four. PN 3, SP 5, MP 4.

Hole 13) Southern Pines has really great downhill par four. Pine Needles has a long par three, downhill. Mid-Pines has a long and somewhat drab par three, too. Southern Pines surges farther ahead. PN 3, SP 6, MP 4.

Hole 14) Southern Pines has a good par three that was made better by a green enlargement. Pine Needles has a brawny dogleg right that tempts you to go long and through the trees left too easily. Mid-Pines has a good shorter par four. Pine Needles wins it. PN 4, SP 6, MP 4.

Hole 15) A good par five with a nice cross-hazard at Southern Pines. Pine Needles has a flat par five with enough interest. Mid-Pines also has a long downhill-then-uphill par five. This one's really close, but Pine Needles is in third. Mid-Pines takes it. PN 4, SP 6, MP 5.

Hole 16) An almost-drivable par four at Southern Pines that's not dangerous enough to punish a layup/wedge. Pine Needles is a mid-length par three that doesn't do much for me. Plus @Hardspoon almost aced it, so… that's a strike in my book. 😉 Mid-Pines has an epic downhill tee shot on a good sized par four. There's a tie at the top! PN 4, SP 6, MP 6.

Hole 17) Southern has a good downhill par four. Needles has a quirky dogleg left 80° par four. Mid-Pines has a solid par four. Southern re-takes the solo lead. PN 4, SP 7, MP 6.

Hole 18) Southern finishes with a good hole, but not the winner in this round. Needles has a downhill par four with a downhill lie for your approach. Mid-Pines finishes with an epic hole that plays to a green below the massive clubhouse/lodge. We have a tie! PN 4, SP 7, MP 7.

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As I noted, my mood could change and I might pick other holes another time.

Also, it's interesting that MP and SP tied with PN trailing by three… Pine Needles tied my two-way playoff against Mid-Pines. Southern Pines must have leapt up and nabbed a few Needles holes. 😉

How do you rate each of the holes? Which holes are your favorite from each course?

[coachjimsc]

I agree with your assessment except on the following holes:

Hole 5) The par 3 at Pine Needles is tremendous. If you don’t hit a good shot, you could be in the chipping area to the right with the green way above you or in one of those bunkers short of the green which is no bargain. Also, the green is quite undulating. 

Hole 10) I like the Pines Needles par 5. If you don’t hit a good drive around the corner you have a decision to make on your second shot whether to lay up short of the waste area that crosses about 80 yards short of the green or try to carry it.

Hole 17) Really close call here but I'll go with Pine Needles over SP just because of the difficulty and I birdied it the last time I played it. 😁

Favorite holes from each course:
Pine Needles: 
#2, 9, 10, 14, 17
Mid Pines:
#3, 8, 12, 16, 18
Southern Pines:
#6, 8, 11, 15, 17
 

[klineka]

This was a great read as we are right in the midst of planning a trip down in July. Most likely are going to do Pine Needles as our "expensive" round and do Talamore and Mid South for the other 3 rounds.

Nobody in my group has played any of Mid Pines, Pine Needles or Southern Pines so don't have any personal comparisons to go off of, but the fact that Pine Needles has hosted multiple US Women's Opens, is a bit grander in scale from what I've read, and is ranked a bit higher on most golf course ranking lists (not that they mean too much) are enough things to bump it ahead and have us choosing it over Mid Pines.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, coachjimsc said:

Hole 5) The par 3 at Pine Needles is tremendous. If you don’t hit a good shot, you could be in the chipping area to the right with the green way above you or in one of those bunkers short of the green which is no bargain. Also, the green is quite undulating.

Yeah, it just feels a bit bland to me. I don't mind par threes - two of them won including the third at PN. Pine Needles #5 just feels a bit bland. Good golf hole, good test. Just tough to compete against a really solid par that has elevation, scrubby areas, a pond, a really good green…

5 hours ago, coachjimsc said:

Hole 10) I like the Pines Needles par 5. If you don’t hit a good drive around the corner you have a decision to make on your second shot whether to lay up short of the waste area that crosses about 80 yards short of the green or try to carry it.

Hole 17) Really close call here but I'll go with Pine Needles over SP just because of the difficulty and I birdied it the last time I played it. 😁

Both are like 80° par fives, though, and it feels a bit gimmicky to me. At #17 in particular, it's too easy to carry the bunker but then run through the fairway and still be in the trees on the far side. And if you play right of the bunker, you have like 210 in. 😄

1 hour ago, klineka said:

Most likely are going to do Pine Needles as our "expensive" round and do Talamore and Mid South for the other 3 rounds.

You can't go wrong with any of the three. Truly.

1 hour ago, klineka said:

Nobody in my group has played any of Mid Pines, Pine Needles or Southern Pines so don't have any personal comparisons to go off of, but the fact that Pine Needles has hosted multiple US Women's Opens, is a bit grander in scale from what I've read, and is ranked a bit higher on most golf course ranking lists (not that they mean too much) are enough things to bump it ahead and have us choosing it over Mid Pines.

The lists haven't caught up to the renovations done at all of the courses, and I think hosting the USWO (PN is more spacious, which is good for crowds and hospitality — SP and MP are intimate routings) bumps up PN without saying anything about the actual golf course.

But, that's again not to say you can go wrong with either. As MP is right across the street, I encourage you to go across the street to look at it. PN was my favorite before the renovations (I hadn't played SP back then, though). I was mildly surprised at the results of this test, too, but again I think SP "took" a few more of the wins from PN than it did from MP.

Ask me tomorrow, though, and PN might win. Or tie. Or lose ground. 😄 

[DaveP043]

I've played these three courses in quick succession each of the last years, I definitely have some favorites.  I think @iacas did a good job in describing the holes, and I agree with many of his preferences.  I'll outline the ones where I differ:
Hole 1 - I like the downhill drives at both SP and MP, but I like the green complex better at MP
Hole 5 – I like all 3, but I gave this to the par-5 at SP, mostly for the really demanding green.
Hole 8 - Here I picked the fairly short par-4 at PN over the longer downhill 4 at SP, in a close call.  This is one of the tighter driving holes there.
Hole 9 -  I picked the demanding par-3 over water at SP over the shorter (but interesting) par-4 at PN
Note that I reversed these two holes, as compared to Erik's choices.
Hole 10 – Again a touch choice between par-5s at MP and PN.  I love the look of the bunkering at MP, but picked PN for the more interesting terrain.
Hole 12 – No disagreement here, to me this is a classic hole at Mid Pines.  A downhill drive to a great wide fairway.  But the green runs from front-left to back-right, with a deep bunker guarding the right side.  Sure, you have tons of room to the right side of the fairway, but taking that safe route brings the bunker more into play.  The closer you can drive to the trees on the left, the more open the second shot.
Hole 13 – I like the downhill par-3 at PN.
Hole 14 – I really like the relatively short par-4 at MP, beautiful deep bunkering and a serious false front.
In spite of the differences, I came to the same total, 7 apiece for Southern Pines and Mid Pines, 4 for Pine Needles.  There were a lot of difficult choices, places where I like each of the 3 options.  Overall, I think the terrain at Pine Needles is less interesting, a lot more fairly level holes, and a lot more tee shots over a horizon.  Southern Pines and Pine Needles have a lot more ups and downs to work with.  In going over these, I was struck by the number of times Ross routed a par-5 over a rise, and left the player with an uphill second shot.

[klineka]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:54 PM, iacas said:

You can't go wrong with any of the three. Truly.

The lists haven't caught up to the renovations done at all of the courses, and I think hosting the USWO (PN is more spacious, which is good for crowds and hospitality — SP and MP are intimate routings) bumps up PN without saying anything about the actual golf course.

But, that's again not to say you can go wrong with either. As MP is right across the street, I encourage you to go across the street to look at it. PN was my favorite before the renovations (I hadn't played SP back then, though). I was mildly surprised at the results of this test, too, but again I think SP "took" a few more of the wins from PN than it did from MP.

Slight update to this, we were planning on playing Pine Needles but I guess there is a tournament or event there the weekend we are going down so we switched it over to Mid Pines. Right about a month out from the trip, starting to get quite excited.

[dsc123]

Rent the motorcycles!  

[klineka]

1 hour ago, dsc123 said:

Rent the motorcycles!  

Any idea how much extra they are over regular carts? Talamore handled the booking and payment of the Mid Pines tee time since we booked the whole trip through them so not quite sure how that would work if we did want to add the cycles.

[dsc123]

1 hour ago, klineka said:

Any idea how much extra they are over regular carts? Talamore handled the booking and payment of the Mid Pines tee time since we booked the whole trip through them so not quite sure how that would work if we did want to add the cycles.

Its something in the neighborhood of $25 extra.  You don't pay the course, its all done via the Finn Scooter app.  So it won't change anything with regard to what you already have booked.  You can call ahead now and ask the pro shop to reserve them for you.  

I've used them 3 times; twice at mid pines and once at Tobacco.  Both times at mid pines were awesome.  At Tobacco, they all died mid-round and the course had to run carts out to us.   But everyone agreed it was awesome and well worth it.  

[iacas]

8 hours ago, klineka said:

Slight update to this, we were planning on playing Pine Needles but I guess there is a tournament or event there the weekend we are going down so we switched it over to Mid Pines. Right about a month out from the trip, starting to get quite excited.

Too late to play Southern Pines instead? 😄 

[GolfLug]

9 hours ago, klineka said:

Slight update to this, we were planning on playing Pine Needles but I guess there is a tournament or event there the weekend we are going down so we switched it over to Mid Pines. Right about a month out from the trip, starting to get quite excited.

+1 for SP if you can. Don't be fooled by the muni type driving range 🙃.. I could play it every week. 

Par 3s on the front nine, especially 9 are some of the best anywhere. Not a dull moment on the course. Greens are demanding as hell.

Of course MP is a close 2nd IMO, so no worries if you end up there.

[klineka]

Played Mid Pines a couple days ago and now I've had some time to reflect on the round.

It was very very soft when we played, they were about 2 weeks post aeration so the greens were still sandy and slow but the ball did roll true so wasn't too big of a deal, didn't take me long at all to get used to the green speeds. Fairways were soft too, not much rollout there either. 

The fact that the greens and fairways were so receptive made Mid Pines play significantly easier for us than I think it normally does/it was intended.

I managed to keep my ball in the fairway or just off for most of the day which pretty much always left me some sort of wedge or short iron into the green.

There was a very fine line between good and bad shots, my good shots got rewarded and some of my playing partners hit some poor shots or hit into deep bunkers and had no chance. We did enjoy the fact that most of the holes seemed to give you at least one side you could miss on off the tee and still be able to find your ball/hit a recovery shot towards the green.

I birdied 2, 6, and 16 and had a couple other solid looks inside 10 feet on 9 and 18.

Ended up going 34-38 for a 72. Bogey free front 9 and then bogeyed 10 after finding fairway bunker off the tee and double bogeyed 11 after having a horrible lie in the rough just left of the green and thinning the first chip shot to the other side of the green. 

I'm not sure if I have a favorite hole, I thought 1 was a really good starting hole, I enjoyed 15 and 16, could feel the scale of the property from 15 green/16 tee and then the walk up 18 was awesome too. 

We also enjoyed walking around the clubhouse and pro shop, a lot of cool history and artifacts there.

Overall I'd say it's solidly in my top 5 courses I've ever played.

I definitely wouldn't mind playing again in firmer conditions as well as checking out Pine Needles and Southern Pines.

[saevel25]

24 minutes ago, klineka said:

I definitely wouldn't mind playing again in firmer conditions as well as checking out Pine Needles and Southern Pines.

I recommend doing that. 

I still think I like Mid Pines the best. I want to get back down there to play Southern Pines, now that it is renovated. I am guessing I would say Mid Pines > Southern Pines > Pine Needles. Pine Needles is very good. It's like Mid Pines at a 95, Southern Pines at a 93, Pine Needles at a 91 type of scoring. I could see myself switching Southern Pines with Pine Needles. Maybe Southern Pines jumps above them all. 

[saevel25]

Southern Pines is now 72nd on Golf Digest latest top 100 public courses. Which they put above Mid Pines, but below Pine Needles. All three are in the top 100. 

Southern Pines Golf Club | Courses | Golf Digest

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Southern Pines used to be a course that only locals and architectural bookworms played. Designed in the early 1900s by Donald Ross, the affordable public course occupied a wonderful, bucolic piece of land and...

 

[iacas]

Curious to hear @cedrictheo's take on these three and how he'd rank them having seen them all once this past October.