2023 FedEx Cup Playoffs

[Zeph]

Glover is not going low so far and players are lining up behind him. He may have to get something going to win this. Perhaps he has enough of a head start where a birdie or two is enough, but a dropped shot can be detrimental.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, jxdama said:

The  problem with that  is when the tour allows cheating then if  you  have  integrity and dont cheat you are at a  competitive disadvantage.

The simple problem with your whole thing here… it's not cheating. Not in the least.

[Golfer20]

I guess there's hope for all of us!  

 

 

[elementz]

Between almost a 90 minute weather delay, Glover's swamp ass and Cantlay with the non stop shuffling of his feet when lining up a putt......Was not a very enjoyable viewing experience to open up the playoffs.  Not to mention the LCP in effect....I can live with that but it is BS when you get to completely improve your line rather than place your ball to it's original spot, or as close as possible.

Was hoping Fleetwood would have finally got over the hump but he just doesn't seem to have that killer instinct to close out a PGA tournament.    

Gotta think Glover should be an easy captains pick for the RC at this point.  

Edited August 14, 2023 by elementz

[Zeph]

Maybe Fleetwood should have defected to LIV. He plays well the first three days then can’t get anywhere on Sunday.

[klineka]

15 minutes ago, elementz said:

Was hoping Fleetwood would have finally got over the hump but he just doesn't seem to have that killer instinct to close out a PGA tournament.    

I hate when people say this. By that logic only one person per week has "that killer instinct", right? 

The difference between Fleetwood finishing T3 and being in a playoff was likely 1/4" on a putt breaking a slightly different direction and lipping in instead of burning an edge. 

I think people drastically underestimate how difficult it is to win a PGA Tour event. 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but did he ever even have a share of the lead let alone the solo lead on Sunday? I don't think it was his tournament to "close out" like it was Glover's.

21 minutes ago, elementz said:

  Gotta think Glover should be an easy captains pick for the RC at this point.  

I don't know if I would quite use the word "easy" in front of captain's pick. Yes, Glover is playing really really high level golf right now, but over the whole season JT (who has plenty of Ryder Cup experience compared to none from Glover) has gained more strokes off the tee, roughly equaled Glover's strokes gained tee to green, and has been a significantly better putter than Glover.

And that's just JT. Spieth, Fowler, Finau, Bradley, and Burns all have high Strokes Gained: Total metrics than Glover, with some of those by a long shot.

I'm not necessarily saying Glover doesn't deserve to be on the team, but I don't think it will be an "easy" captains pick. (Unless he does something crazy this week like wins again or something)

[StuM]

39 minutes ago, elementz said:

I can live with that but it is BS when you get to completely improve your line rather than place your ball to it's original spot, or as close as possible.

Have I missed something?  LCP does require you to place the ball within @ a scorecard's length (@ 6 inches) so really not able to improve the line by much.  LCP applies in the fairway so unless you are at the corner of a dog-leg moving the ball 6 inches one way or the other is not going to get you out from behind a tree or much that really "Helps".  Maybe on a dog-leg that 6 inches helps get around the corner (Very little help).

Is there an example of where one of the players improved thier line?  I'd love to look it on on You-tube or somewhere to see what you are referring to.

[klineka]

4 minutes ago, StuM said:

Have I missed something?  LCP does require you to place the ball within @ a scorecard's length (@ 6 inches) so really not able to improve the line by much.  LCP applies in the fairway so unless you are at the corner of a dog-leg moving the ball 6 inches one way or the other is not going to get you out from behind a tree or much that really "Helps".  Maybe on a dog-leg that 6 inches helps get around the corner (Very little help).

Is there an example of where one of the players improved thier line?  I'd love to look it on on You-tube or somewhere to see what you are referring to.

I thought it was a club length not scorecard length?

[elementz]

53 minutes ago, StuM said:

Have I missed something?  LCP does require you to place the ball within @ a scorecard's length (@ 6 inches) so really not able to improve the line by much.  LCP applies in the fairway so unless you are at the corner of a dog-leg moving the ball 6 inches one way or the other is not going to get you out from behind a tree or much that really "Helps".  Maybe on a dog-leg that 6 inches helps get around the corner (Very little help).

Is there an example of where one of the players improved thier line?  I'd love to look it on on You-tube or somewhere to see what you are referring to.

It was a club length, definitely not a score cards length....the most blatant example I saw yesterday ( can't remember who, Spieth on a par 3) where player hit an approach to their green.   They likely would have had to chip it on, however, they were allowed to LCP a club length over which gave them a much better angle (and lie) to allow them to putt it on the green.

I may still have it on the PVR so I will check once I get home later this evening.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by elementz

[elementz]

1 hour ago, klineka said:

I hate when people say this. By that logic only one person per week has "that killer instinct", right? 

The difference between Fleetwood finishing T3 and being in a playoff was likely 1/4" on a putt breaking a slightly different direction and lipping in instead of burning an edge. 

I think people drastically underestimate how difficult it is to win a PGA Tour event. 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but did he ever even have a share of the lead let alone the solo lead on Sunday? I don't think it was his tournament to "close out" like it was Glover's.

I don't know if I would quite use the word "easy" in front of captain's pick. Yes, Glover is playing really really high level golf right now, but over the whole season JT (who has plenty of Ryder Cup experience compared to none from Glover) has gained more strokes off the tee, roughly equaled Glover's strokes gained tee to green, and has been a significantly better putter than Glover.

And that's just JT. Spieth, Fowler, Finau, Bradley, and Burns all have high Strokes Gained: Total metrics than Glover, with some of those by a long shot.

I'm not necessarily saying Glover doesn't deserve to be on the team, but I don't think it will be an "easy" captains pick. (Unless he does something crazy this week like wins again or something)

I don't disagree with you on either points.....I think I just used the wrong terminology.   However, I believe TF is now the person who has the most career earning with out a win.   Of course, I would take that deal but it just seems he plays well for 3 of 4 days and then finds ways to either come up just short or play himself out of contention.   His PGA Tour rounds played have to be into the triple digits by now.  

The way Glover is putting now and his calm demeanor, I would seriously consider on adding him.   Maybe it is recency bias, but I would be going with the hot hand....not overall RC records from years prior.   I am a HUGE JT fan but he just doesn't seem to have it right now.   Although I will still root for him to be on the team (full transparency, I will be cheering for the Euros).   I would also be inclined to at least take a look at Bryson as well.   

 

[StuM]

I tired searching the USGA Rules but could not find "How Far" you could move the ball for Preferred Lies / LCP.  I could be wrong but I thought it was much shorter than a club's length.  

I did find the link below, not USGA or anything official, that indicates the distance needs to be specified with invoking the LCP rule.  It also references "6 inches is the most common" but they also indicate it could be a Club's length.  I know I saw somewere about "Scorecard's length, but of course I can't find that now.  I would love to have @DaveP043comment on this.

I Prefer Another Lie: The Lift, Clean and Place Rule in Golf

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A preferred lie in golf is a condition in effect by local rule and is also known as lift, clean and place. Here's how it works.

 

 

44 minutes ago, elementz said:

I may still have it on the PVR so I will check once I get home later this evening.

I'd love to see that.  I have no problem with LCP but I would have an issue with moving it a full club length.  I've always taken LCP to mean place it back on the same spot. 

I have used the 1 Club rule in scrambles, but those are not withing the rules of golf.

[DaveP043]

3 hours ago, StuM said:

I tired searching the USGA Rules but could not find "How Far" you could move the ball for Preferred Lies / LCP.  I could be wrong but I thought it was much shorter than a club's length.  

I did find the link below, not USGA or anything official, that indicates the distance needs to be specified with invoking the LCP rule.  It also references "6 inches is the most common" but they also indicate it could be a Club's length.  I know I saw somewere about "Scorecard's length, but of course I can't find that now.  I would love to have @DaveP043comment on this.

I Prefer Another Lie: The Lift, Clean and Place Rule in Golf

---

A preferred lie in golf is a condition in effect by local rule and is also known as lift, clean and place. Here's how it works.

 

 

I'd love to see that.  I have no problem with LCP but I would have an issue with moving it a full club length.  I've always taken LCP to mean place it back on the same spot. 

I have used the 1 Club rule in scrambles, but those are not withing the rules of golf.

refer to Model Local Rule E-3 in Committee Procedures to understand for sure, the distance is whatever the Committee decides.  If they want to require the ball to be played from the original position, they can use E-2 to allow lift clean and replace.

edit to add, the recommendation is to use E-3 only on closely mown areas.  it's perfectly reasonable to use E-3 in fairways, and E-2 elsewhere.  In that way you avoid mud balls but the relief doesn't get you out of a bush.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, elementz said:

It was a club length, definitely not a score cards length....the most blatant example I saw yesterday ( can't remember who, Spieth on a par 3) where player hit an approach to their green.   They likely would have had to chip it on, however, they were allowed to LCP a club length over which gave them a much better angle (and lie) to allow them to putt it on the green.

Please do. I think generally they don't allow it in the rough. It's almost always just in the fairway, so… he was likely in the fringe, and lift, cleaned, and placed… in the fringe.

[klineka]

4 hours ago, elementz said:

It was a club length, definitely not a score cards length....the most blatant example I saw yesterday ( can't remember who, Spieth on a par 3) where player hit an approach to their green.   They likely would have had to chip it on, however, they were allowed to LCP a club length over which gave them a much better angle (and lie) to allow them to putt it on the green.

They said during the telecast yesterday that as long as the shot ended up in a closely mown area, the player could LCP but they didn't have to place it on a closely mown area. Glover did that yesterday on hole 16 for his 3rd shot on the par 5. He had a delicate little chip to a front pin and he took the ball from the tightly mown fairway apron and placed it in the first cut of rough so it was sitting up ever so slightly and he nipped it to tap in range for the birdie.

[DaveP043]

4 hours ago, elementz said:

It was a club length, definitely not a score cards length....the most blatant example I saw yesterday ( can't remember who, Spieth on a par 3) where player hit an approach to their green.   They likely would have had to chip it on, however, they were allowed to LCP a club length over which gave them a much better angle (and lie) to allow them to putt it on the green.

I may still have it on the PVR so I will check once I get home later this evening.

 

Sometimes the relief rules help the player to get a better lie, sometimes they don't.   That's why we sometimes see a player hitting it off the cart path.

[DaveP043]

13 hours ago, klineka said:

They said during the telecast yesterday that as long as the shot ended up in a closely mown area, the player could LCP but they didn't have to place it on a closely mown area

This is exactly in accordance with the way E-3 is written, and recommended to be used.  Relief is available "When any part of a player’s ball touches part of the general area cut to fairway height or less".  The Relief Area "Must be in the general area" with no requirement that it be  in the closely mown part of the GA.

I know I've said it before, knowledge of the Rules is a tool, a weapon, just as much as any club in the bag.  If anyone chooses not to learn the rules, they're giving up a tool.

[Zeph]

I very rarely see players putt with the flag in these days. When the rule was changed, I got the impression that statistically you would want the flag in. These guys are playing for millions and important points, so why do so few leave the flag in if it can save them even just a single stroke?

[Big C]

10 minutes ago, Zeph said:

I very rarely see players putt with the flag in these days. When the rule was changed, I got the impression that statistically you would want the flag in. These guys are playing for millions and important points, so why do so few leave the flag in if it can save them even just a single stroke?

For tour pros, I would suspect there is almost no advantage to having the flag stick in. The benefit comes when putts are moving to the hole at a relatively high rate of speed. Generally that occurs when the putt is very long (very difficult to gauge the speed), or the putter themselves has poor distance control. That often applies to amateurs, but usually does not apply to tour pros. 

Anecdotally, I have seen a handful of dead center putts that rattle the flag and kick out, so there are times when leaving the flag stick in is a disadvantage. 

With the benefits being negligible to the pros, it comes down to a personal preference, and I suspect most pros like the visual look of an open hole from mid to short range.