Cannot Play Provisional If Ball Is Found Question?

[TapOut64]

My 16 year old step son had a tournament this past weekend where he hit his tee shot into the woods on a par 4, thinking that he would not find it, he hit a provisional which went right down the middle of the fairway.  The USGA rules official on the hole told us that he may not want to find his ball in the woods since if he did, he would have to play it or go back to the tee and hit another provisional as you cannot hit a provisional if your ball is found so he first provisional does not count.  I am confused as it seems like such a waste of time to have to go back to the tee and hit a second provisional.  Is this just the way it is?  (Somehow his ball bounced out of the woods and he found it and played it so he did not have to go back to the tee.)   

[saevel25]

36 minutes ago, TapOut64 said:

The USGA rules official on the hole told us that he may not want to find his ball in the woods since if he did, he would have to play it or go back to the tee and hit another provisional as you cannot hit a provisional if your ball is found so he first provisional does not count. 

That does not make sense. 

You hit tee shot #1. You hit a provisional. You search and do not find the ball, you can hit from your provisional. If you find the ball, then the provisional is not an option, and you must now play from where the ball is found. You have options of hitting it, taking unplayable lie(s) drops, or go back to the tee box to rehit. That would not be considered a provisional since you decided to take stroke and distance, so you must take the result of the rehit from the tee box. 

[pganapathy]

As mentioned above, a provisional is in case you don't find the first ball.  If you do find it within the course (i.e not OB for example), the provisional was just a nice practice shot for you.  Then the first ball is in play and you figure out how to play it.  AS it lies, take a penalty drop or free drop if it applies, stroke and distance.  If you choose to not search for your first ball, you need to hit your provisional ball until the last stroke made on it is beyond where the first ball approximately was length wise

[StuM]

1 hour ago, TapOut64 said:

My 16 year old step son had a tournament this past weekend where he hit his tee shot into the woods on a par 4, thinking that he would not find it, he hit a provisional which went right down the middle of the fairway.  The USGA rules official on the hole told us that he may not want to find his ball in the woods since if he did, he would have to play it or go back to the tee and hit another provisional as you cannot hit a provisional if your ball is found so he first provisional does not count.  I am confused as it seems like such a waste of time to have to go back to the tee and hit a second provisional.  Is this just the way it is?  (Somehow his ball bounced out of the woods and he found it and played it so he did not have to go back to the tee.)   

The question I have on this is not about the Provisional, but about the rules official giving advice to a player.  Did the player ask him a question and the rules official simply responded to the question or did the rules official simply "Volunteer" some advice?  If the player did not ask a question should the rules official kept quiet?

I fully agree with the interpretation of the rule that once a ball is found the provisional is no longer in play and regardless of saving time or not he can't play that 1st provisional once he found his ball.

28 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

That does not make sense. 

You hit tee shot #1. You hit a provisional. You search and do not find the ball, you can hit from your provisional. If you find the ball, then the provisional is not an option, and you must now play from where the ball is found. You have options of hitting it, taking unplayable lie(s) drops, or go back to the tee box to rehit. That would not be considered a provisional since you decided to take stroke and distance, so you must take the result of the rehit from the tee box. 

I think what the rules official said is the same as what you said, just worded differently.  The rules official basically said "If you find your ball you can't play that provisional" but also included the advice to not look for the ball.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, TapOut64 said:

My 16 year old step son had a tournament this past weekend where he hit his tee shot into the woods on a par 4, thinking that he would not find it, he hit a provisional which went right down the middle of the fairway.  The USGA rules official on the hole told us that he may not want to find his ball in the woods since if he did, he would have to play it or go back to the tee and hit another provisional as you cannot hit a provisional if your ball is found so he first provisional does not count.  I am confused as it seems like such a waste of time to have to go back to the tee and hit a second provisional.  Is this just the way it is?  (Somehow his ball bounced out of the woods and he found it and played it so he did not have to go back to the tee.)   

First, you should look at Rule 18.3c(3), which says that the Provisional Ball MUST be abandoned if you find the Original Ball on the course within the 3-minute search time.  That Provisional Ball becomes a WRONG BALL immediately.  The reasoning behind it is that a player is almost never allowed a choice between a "known result" and an "unknown result".  For a ball deep in the woods, the player has several options:

Play it as it lies, or

Take Unplayable Ball Relief, either Back on the line, lateral, or Stroke and Distance.  If you allow the player to utilize that Provisional Ball (a KNOWN result), he can try to decide if he can improve on that with any of the other choices (unknown results).  And of course the success of that Provisional will impact his choice, whether it in the middle of the fairway, or 5 feet away from the Original Ball.  So the Rules require the player to make the choice "blind", and take his chances.

As for an Official giving advice, I usually ask a player if he wants me to look for his ball before I even go in there.  Sometimes they know the rule, sometimes they ask why it would matter.  If he asks, I'll explain about the requirement to play the Original Ball if its found, no matter where its found.  I'd never start by suggesting that he not look.

[Rulesman]

Unfortunately we don't know exactly what the referee said. The crux is the where, when and what.

[billchao]

2 hours ago, TapOut64 said:

he would have to play it or go back to the tee and hit another provisional as you cannot hit a provisional if your ball is found so he first provisional does not count.

Am I correct in assuming this is just you paraphrasing and not his exact words? For clarity, had the original ball been found and your son had to go back to the tee box to play the next shot, that’s taking stroke and distance relief and not “hitting another provisional.”

[Elmer]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

You hit tee shot #1. You hit a provisional. You search and do not find the ball, you can hit from your provisional. If you find the ball, then the provisional is not an option, and you must now play from where the ball is found. You have options of hitting it, taking unplayable lie(s) drops, or go back to the tee box to rehit. That would not be considered a provisional since you decided to take stroke and distance, so you must take the result of the rehit from the tee box. 

I am a little confused.
If the player finds their ball and choses to go back to the box and take a stroke and distance, why cant the provisional tee shot count as the ball in play and just tack on the stroke?
in this scenario I don't understand, with a playable ball out there having to go back and hit a third drive?

I know, it is the rules but it does not seem to speed up the game.

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Elmer said:

I am a little confused.
If the player finds their ball and choses to go back to the box and take a stroke and distance, why cant the provisional tee shot count as the ball in play and just tack on the stroke?
in this scenario I don't understand, with a playable ball out there having to go back and hit a third drive?

I know, it is the rules but it does not seem to speed up the game.

Are you being serious with this question? 

[DaveP043]

11 minutes ago, Elmer said:

I am a little confused.
If the player finds their ball and choses to go back to the box and take a stroke and distance, why cant the provisional tee shot count as the ball in play and just tack on the stroke?
in this scenario I don't understand, with a playable ball out there having to go back and hit a third drive?

I know, it is the rules but it does not seem to speed up the game.

Please look back at my initial answer.  You don't get to choose between one "known" result and other "unknown" results.  Sometimes speed of play has to take a back seat to principles.

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

Please look back at my initial answer.  You don't get to choose between one "known" result and other "unknown" results.  Sometimes speed of play has to take a back seat to principles.

I think he gets that. I think he wants to take this off-topic and discuss about how it's a waste of time to not just use the provisional. He can start a new thread about that if he wants.

[DaveP043]

17 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I think he gets that. I think he wants to take this off-topic and discuss about how it's a waste of time to not just use the provisional. He can start a new thread about that if he wants.

I've seen plenty of people who understand what a Rule requires without understanding the reasoning behind it.  Perhaps @Elmer will come back to explain his confusion a little further.  And perhaps @TapOut64 will return to clarify just what the Referee said.

[TapOut64]

For clarification, the USGA rules official only spoke to me.  He told me he would inform my step son that he may not want to search for his ball, but again, my step sons ball kicked out of the woods and was in play, so the rules official never said anything to him.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, TapOut64 said:

For clarification, the USGA rules official only spoke to me.  He told me he would inform my step son that he may not want to search for his ball, but again, my step sons ball kicked out of the woods and was in play, so the rules official never said anything to him.

Great.

He likely didn't say this:

7 hours ago, TapOut64 said:

… since if he did, he would have to play it or go back to the tee and hit another provisional as you cannot hit a provisional if your ball is found so he first provisional does not count. 

[Rulesman]

He actually wrote - "The USGA rules official on the hole told us ...."

Did this include the player or just some spectators? Ambiguous

[TapOut64]

By "us" I meant me and one of the other players father.  They allowed spectators to help find golf balls so we were on our way to search for his ball in the woods.

[StuM]

In the case above the Rules Official never spoke to the player and all work out as best it could for the player so no issue.  I understand @DaveP043said he would never "start by suggesting he not look" but I am curious, if it is against the rules for the offical to offer unsolicited advice.  I know I can't ask anyone other than my caddie for advice on a shot but is it also wrong for an official to offer informaiton on a rule without being asked? 

I can see the rules official discussing it if the player asks the rules offical "What are my options?" but I seem to think the offering of unsolicited advice is wrong. 

What say the rules?

[DaveP043]

24 minutes ago, StuM said:

I understand @DaveP043said he would never "start by suggesting he not look" but I am curious, if it is against the rules for the offical to offer unsolicited advice

There's not a lot of guidance in the Rules here.  First thing, its not "against the rules", who would be penalized?  Certainly not the player, and there's no way to penalize the Referee.  You can read a little bit about the duties of a Referee in Committee Procedures Section 6C. 

A Referee is encouraged to intervene in order to stop a player from breaching a Rule, but that isn't a concern here.  I've always been told not to volunteer advice, but to try to be available should a question be asked.  I've also been instructed not to begin a search for a ball without asking the player if he wants help in searching.  I don't want to preemptively force the player to abandon his Provisional because I found an Original Ball that he didn't intend to search for.  Having a Rules discussion with spectators (including parents) is a less clear-cut issue.  Do I suggest to a spectator that he not begin searching until the player asks for help?  Does my discussion of the reasons for that suggestion end up becoming unsolicited advice to the player?  There really aren't hard and fast rules to govern this, just experience and sound judgement.