Club Path/Face to Path Optimal or Acceptable Ranges

[Eli17]

Just recently I gained access to a Trackman (Golf isn't a very popular sport where I am from) and got a bunch of new info about my swing, however I am unsure about one particular value - an optimal/acceptable range for Club path and face to path.

I understand the ball flight laws but am actually interested what would represent a functional working range in actual degrees. I watched a bunch of youtube, searched the forums and didn't find any actual number except for one post mentioning a generally functional swing path should be in the +/- 3-6 degrees with the face to path being the opposite and halved both for fade and draw. e.g. if you have a +5 path you would want the ftp to be -2,5ish as a general rule.

Can anyone help me figure out what I should be aiming for? Where can I get some info on this.

my swing speed with 7 iron is 77-78 mph and my path is from in to out on average 5-6 degrees and face to path is -3 to-4. So its a draw biased swing but I was honestly surprised that if was so in to out. On swings where I got stuck it was even 8-10 degrees in to out.

Would appreciate any help. 

[colin007]

I'm not really sure what you are asking for, people play different amounts of curve and the face to path versus path angle differences are just going to create different amounts of curve. Some people prefer more, some people prefer less. As long as you have a consistent ball flight I wouldn't worry too much about it

[billchao]

I think generally speaking, good shots are within 2° FTP. You’re not that far off in terms of the face but that path needs addressing. Your miss with a 7i that’s 8-10° out is way too much.

1 minute ago, colin007 said:

I'm not really sure what you are asking for, people play different amounts of curve and the face to path versus path angle differences are just going to create different amounts of curve. Some people prefer more, some people prefer less. As long as you have a consistent ball flight I wouldn't worry too much about it

There gets to be a point where big curves aren’t playable. Like if you have a tree-lined hole where you have to start your ball right to sweep it around but you can’t because the trees are there.

[Eli17]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

I think generally speaking, good shots are within 2° FTP. You’re not that far off in terms of the face but that path needs addressing. Your miss with a 7i that’s 8-10° out is way too much.

There gets to be a point where big curves aren’t playable. Like if you have a tree-lined hole where you have to start your ball right to sweep it around but you can’t because the trees are there.

Thanks for the input! Is there some type of table or spreadsheet that would provide information or approximate values on what would to expect under the specific path and ftp values?

 

Would aiming for a 3 degree in to out path with a slightly closed face make sense?   

1 hour ago, colin007 said:

I'm not really sure what you are asking for, people play different amounts of curve and the face to path versus path angle differences are just going to create different amounts of curve. Some people prefer more, some people prefer less. As long as you have a consistent ball flight I wouldn't worry too much about it

I am looking for a table or formula for what types of flight I can expect under specific circumstances. Namely if my swing speed is approx 80 mph, path is +3 and ftp is -2, what will the outcome be? 

The big picture I would say is that I am having trouble digesting the info I got and do not know what an acceptable and functional range regarding path would be, so I am looking for an anchor value to start and set a goal.

[billchao]

17 minutes ago, Eli17 said:

Is there some type of table or spreadsheet that would provide information or approximate values on what would to expect under the specific path and ftp values?

I don’t think it is as simple as just the two variables. Dynamic loft plays a part, too. Anyway the data isn’t available to the general public. I’m sure Trackman has it.

18 minutes ago, Eli17 said:

Would aiming for a 3 degree in to out path with a slightly closed face make sense?

I’d be careful about chasing specific numbers as a goal. If you’re hitting big curves and hooks, work on that. The numbers will sort themselves out.

20 minutes ago, Eli17 said:

The big picture I would say is that I am having trouble digesting the info I got and do not know what an acceptable and functional range regarding path would be, so I am looking for an anchor value to start and set a goal.

Golf isn’t played from a spreadsheet, my friend 😃

I know plenty of golfers who don’t know their swing numbers like I know mine who could give me five strokes a side and still beat me.

[colin007]

3 hours ago, Eli17 said:

 The big picture I would say is that I am having trouble digesting the info I got and do not know what an acceptable and functional range regarding path would be, so I am looking for an anchor value to start and set a goal.

I think the goal is to have your ball curve back towards the intended landing line. Is your ball doing that?

[grubby98]

trackman university has a lot of information about this and other parts in regards to numbers.  def go through it and it will help you with the numbers

 

[p1n9183]

You really need to know the numbers if you want to go down that path...

You can have a perfect path of +3 degrees and the face aiming +1.5 degrees from the target (fadeToPath of -1.5) for each club in the bag and you will still see totally different ball fligth with each of them. Why?

Going for the extreme examples... You are probably hitting down on your wedges by 6°. By the D-Plane laws (an extension of the ball flight rules) you are moving your path to the right by 3° so now your dynamic path is in reality +6° but the face is still only +1.5° (dynamic faceToPath is now -4.5°). As you know the ball is going to launch at around +2° to the target and turn left to miss it to the left (overdraw). (wedges curve less than less lofted clubs but enough to make you miss left if you don't consider the effect of AoA in the dynamic path.

So basically every club you hit down on it you are going to miss it in average to the left of the target, just because the dynamic path is more right than you intended. 
If you manage to hit your woods with 0° AoA then you are going to hit your target as you wanted. 
But if you hit Up with the driver, lets say +4°, you are moving your dynamic path to the left by 2 degrees. So now your dynamic path is +1° to target and your face is still +1.5° degrees from target (face to path is now +0.5). This is going to be a ball launching +1° of target and moving rigth. (basically a Fade).
So with wedges and every club you hit down on it, you are going to hit an overdraw (you need to aim more to the rigth), with 0° AoA you are going to play a perfect draw (you need to aim to the target), and hitting up on it you are going to see a Fade moving away from target (you need to aim left of the target). 

Conclusion A: there is no perfect number. There are a lot of variables that affect ball flight that changes with every club you pick up. consider that toe and heel shots also affect ball flight. 

Conclusion B: Having a faceToPath that is 1 or 2 degrees apart is going to make you hit fade and draws depending on your AoA. 
To hit the ball with the same shape for every club you need to have more degrees between the face and the path than half of the AoA you are hitting each shot. If you hit down on wedges at -6° and up on the driver at +6° then you need to at least have 4 degrees between your face and your path in either direction.
 

[grubby98]

4 hours ago, p1n9183 said:

You really need to know the numbers if you want to go down that path...

You can have a perfect path of +3 degrees and the face aiming +1.5 degrees from the target (fadeToPath of -1.5) for each club in the bag and you will still see totally different ball fligth with each of them. Why?

Going for the extreme examples... You are probably hitting down on your wedges by 6°. By the D-Plane laws (an extension of the ball flight rules) you are moving your path to the right by 3° so now your dynamic path is in reality +6° but the face is still only +1.5° (dynamic faceToPath is now -4.5°). As you know the ball is going to launch at around +2° to the target and turn left to miss it to the left (overdraw). (wedges curve less than less lofted clubs but enough to make you miss left if you don't consider the effect of AoA in the dynamic path.

So basically every club you hit down on it you are going to miss it in average to the left of the target, just because the dynamic path is more right than you intended. 
If you manage to hit your woods with 0° AoA then you are going to hit your target as you wanted. 
But if you hit Up with the driver, lets say +4°, you are moving your dynamic path to the left by 2 degrees. So now your dynamic path is +1° to target and your face is still +1.5° degrees from target (face to path is now +0.5). This is going to be a ball launching +1° of target and moving rigth. (basically a Fade).
So with wedges and every club you hit down on it, you are going to hit an overdraw (you need to aim more to the rigth), with 0° AoA you are going to play a perfect draw (you need to aim to the target), and hitting up on it you are going to see a Fade moving away from target (you need to aim left of the target). 

Conclusion A: there is no perfect number. There are a lot of variables that affect ball flight that changes with every club you pick up. consider that toe and heel shots also affect ball flight. 

Conclusion B: Having a faceToPath that is 1 or 2 degrees apart is going to make you hit fade and draws depending on your AoA. 
To hit the ball with the same shape for every club you need to have more degrees between the face and the path than half of the AoA you are hitting each shot. If you hit down on wedges at -6° and up on the driver at +6° then you need to at least have 4 degrees between your face and your path in either direction.
 

well said

[Eli17]

11 hours ago, p1n9183 said:

You really need to know the numbers if you want to go down that path...

You can have a perfect path of +3 degrees and the face aiming +1.5 degrees from the target (fadeToPath of -1.5) for each club in the bag and you will still see totally different ball fligth with each of them. Why?

Going for the extreme examples... You are probably hitting down on your wedges by 6°. By the D-Plane laws (an extension of the ball flight rules) you are moving your path to the right by 3° so now your dynamic path is in reality +6° but the face is still only +1.5° (dynamic faceToPath is now -4.5°). As you know the ball is going to launch at around +2° to the target and turn left to miss it to the left (overdraw). (wedges curve less than less lofted clubs but enough to make you miss left if you don't consider the effect of AoA in the dynamic path.

So basically every club you hit down on it you are going to miss it in average to the left of the target, just because the dynamic path is more right than you intended. 
If you manage to hit your woods with 0° AoA then you are going to hit your target as you wanted. 
But if you hit Up with the driver, lets say +4°, you are moving your dynamic path to the left by 2 degrees. So now your dynamic path is +1° to target and your face is still +1.5° degrees from target (face to path is now +0.5). This is going to be a ball launching +1° of target and moving rigth. (basically a Fade).
So with wedges and every club you hit down on it, you are going to hit an overdraw (you need to aim more to the rigth), with 0° AoA you are going to play a perfect draw (you need to aim to the target), and hitting up on it you are going to see a Fade moving away from target (you need to aim left of the target). 

Conclusion A: there is no perfect number. There are a lot of variables that affect ball flight that changes with every club you pick up. consider that toe and heel shots also affect ball flight. 

Conclusion B: Having a faceToPath that is 1 or 2 degrees apart is going to make you hit fade and draws depending on your AoA. 
To hit the ball with the same shape for every club you need to have more degrees between the face and the path than half of the AoA you are hitting each shot. If you hit down on wedges at -6° and up on the driver at +6° then you need to at least have 4 degrees between your face and your path in either direction.
 

This is an amazing amount of information and knowledge and I am grateful for the explanations (using actual numbers which a lot of people don't do) and time used to answer. Where could I get further information like this and further examine it?

On 9/24/2023 at 10:46 PM, colin007 said:

I think the goal is to have your ball curve back towards the intended landing line. Is your ball doing that?

Yes, I have a draw biased swing, my miss is a straight push most often. However this is an attempt to get the flight under control and be able to predict what amount of curve I want. So my goal is not to work the extremes and sling hooks around the course but rather getting an idea as to what would be a functional range for the ball flight. 

[p1n9183]

9 hours ago, Eli17 said:

Where could I get further information like this and further examine it?

This page was really useful when I found it.

 

https://www.perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm

Edited September 27, 2023 by p1n9183

[colin007]

On 9/26/2023 at 4:38 PM, p1n9183 said:

 As you know the ball is going to launch at around +2° to the target 

How dare you assume that I know that.....

[klineka]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:09 AM, Eli17 said:

This is an amazing amount of information and knowledge and I am grateful for the explanations (using actual numbers which a lot of people don't do) and time used to answer. Where could I get further information like this and further examine it?

@grubby98 already answered this, Trackman University. It's free.

Trackmanuniversity.com

 

On 9/27/2023 at 4:09 AM, Eli17 said:

Yes, I have a draw biased swing, my miss is a straight push most often. However this is an attempt to get the flight under control and be able to predict what amount of curve I want. So my goal is not to work the extremes and sling hooks around the course but rather getting an idea as to what would be a functional range for the ball flight. 

You answered this in your original post, somewhere where the face is roughly half of the path will have the ball curving. The more severe your path is and the further the face is from that path the bigger the curve will be. IMO that is all you really need to know in order to predict what amount of curve you want and a functional range for the ball flight. And then just be aware of gear affect especially with longer clubs and the affect that can have on ball flight too.  

I think launch monitor numbers can be useful but it's important to not get bogged down in the weeds with the data. I own a launch monitor that gives me club data too, but I've never once been on the course and thought to myself "My stock swing is 2 degrees out to in but I want to cut this ball more around a tree, I need to make my path 7 out to in here because that gives me 30yds of curve but 6 degrees out to in only gives me 25yds of curve."

A functional range for the ball flight is going to be one that has a repeatable start line and a repeatable curve. You can make that happen with a 1 degree in to out path, a 5 degree in to out path, or even an 8 degree in to out path depending on where you deliver the face. For a period of time earlier this year I was hitting functional shots that were hitting my target and my swing path was double digits out to in.

[iacas]

43 minutes ago, klineka said:

You answered this in your original post, somewhere where the face is roughly half of the path will have the ball curving.

It's a 1:2 ratio for a 6I, yes. For a 9I/W it's about 1:5 or 1:6 for a ball to curve back to the target. For a driver it's closer to 2:3 or even 3:4.