Rule Change on Incorrect Scorecard

[DaveP043]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

And because it was Jordan we now have this convoluted unnecessary rule for the PGA Tour.

Yeah, if this was Russell Henley (just picked some random guy from the US Open leaderboard) or another less well-known player, nothing would have changed.  

[iacas]

37 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Yeah, if this was Russell Henley (just picked some random guy from the US Open leaderboard) or another less well-known player, nothing would have changed.  

Probably not, no.

At least nobody here is suggesting, as they are somewhere else, that the PGA Tour have "official scorers" like in the NBA. 😛 

Freaking idiots.

[GolfLug]

58 minutes ago, iacas said:

No math is required, Vishal. Just have to count your scores and write down the correct number. Pretty basic shit.

 And yet mistakes happen. What's wrong in giving them the opportunity to correct it on principle? They are not absolved of their responsibility to get it right.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I disagree.

All good. Jordan's incidence might have been a high profile conduit. It falls within USGA/RA rules. I agree this is high profile pandering but what's the problem? If this is about getting the scoring information correct at the end of the day then I am okay. They have resources and a billion reasons ($$$) to make this work so let them have it. 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Like I said, I can't wait for the first pro to realize he goofed at 16:00.

Lol. Fair enough. We will see.

[jolter1]

This is one rule I am glad they modified as personally, in professional events, each player keeping their own and partner(s) score is an archaic rule especially with all the official(s) following each group.

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

And yet mistakes happen. What's wrong in giving them the opportunity to correct it on principle? They are not absolved of their responsibility to get it right.

The player had plenty of time to correct any mistake under the previous procedures too, this just closes the door a little later.  But its simply not necessary, we see players reporting 400 scores or more each week on the Tour, many times that if we look at women's tours and play around the world, and this kind of thing happens once or twice a year.  

[GolfLug]

8 minutes ago, jolter1 said:

This is one rule I am glad they modified as personally, in professional events, each player keeping their own and partner(s) score is an archaic rule especially with all the official(s) following each group.

Noooo! They are still responsible for keeping the scores!!!! Nothing in this change absolves them from it.

[saevel25]

8 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

And yet mistakes happen. What's wrong in giving them the opportunity to correct it on principle? They are not absolved of their responsibility to get it right.

Correcting a mistake without penalty does absolve them of responsibility. If you know someone is going to just correct your score, why not just write what ever down and fix it at the end. They get 15 minutes, and get no penalty for it. 

9 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

If this is about getting the scoring information correct at the end of the day then I am okay. They have resources and a billion reasons ($$$) to make this work so let them have it. 

No, it's about golfers complaining that they shouldn't be penalized for making mistakes. It isn't like he didn't shoot that bogie. But signing for a lower score should have consequences. 

6 minutes ago, jolter1 said:

This is one rule I am glad they modified as personally, in professional events, each player keeping their own and partner(s) score is an archaic rule especially with all the official(s) following each group.

I am not sure that is correct. 

Here is a list of associated tours... 

Korn Ferry Tour
PGA Tour Americas
PGA Tour Canada
PGA Tour Champions
PGA Tour China
PGA Tour Latinoamérica

If this rule covers all these tours, do they have the resources of the main PGA tour events to do so? Maybe only the televised events? 

[GolfLug]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 and this kind of thing happens once or twice a year.  

Obviously it's once too many for them. 

5 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Correcting a mistake without penalty does absolve them of responsibility. 

'Correcting' being the operative word. They are not getting away with it.

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

If you know someone is going to just correct your score, why not just write what ever down and fix it at the end.They get 15 minutes, and get no penalty for it.

And why on earth would anyone on a pro tour try that BS?

9 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

 They get 15 minutes, and get no penalty for it. 

 But signing for a lower score should have consequences. 

Where in this change does it say they won't get DQed for signing off (albeit  after allowing 15 minutes extra for whatever brain fart reason) on the wrong score?

[saevel25]

14 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Where in this change does it say they won't get DQed for signing off (albeit  after allowing 15 minutes extra for whatever brain fart reason) on the wrong score?

Unless the player just say F-it, and leaves the course, not correcting signing for a lower score, then there will be no DQ's. This rule, if the PGA Tour players correct the score with in 15 minutes, negates the DQ. 

Maybe going back to how the committee is allowed to modify the process for processing the scores. 

In the USGA rulebook, the rules say that once the scorecard is returned to the committee, the player must not change the scorecard. So, does their new procedure violate this?

Quote

he Tour announced a 15-minute window “to correct an error on his scorecard, even if he has left the scoring area.”

• If a scorecard is validated in the scoring system and the player has left the scoring area, he may return to correct an error within 15 minutes of validation.
• If a player has left the scoring area and an error is identified before the scorecard is validated in the scoring system, he may return to correct the error within 15 minutes of the error being identified by the scoring official.
• If a player is in the scoring area when the 15 minutes expires, his scorecard is returned when he leaves the scoring area.

So, is the PGA Tour rules stating the card is not considered "returned" to the committee until after it is validated, and no 15-minute window is granted? 

Edited June 19 by saevel25

[GolfLug]

Matt, all of the above requirements to certify the scores and steps of any changes still stand. A DQ is very much in effect for not meeting any of them after the 15 extra minutes to use an honest eraser (EDIT: with the marker's agreement) if necessary.  

Edited June 19 by GolfLug

[boogielicious]

4 hours ago, GolfLug said:

When does the 15 minute clock start? When they enter the 'scoring area' or when they turn in the scorecard? 

Right when you sit on the toilet. 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

In the USGA rulebook, the rules say that once the scorecard is returned to the committee, the player must not change the scorecard. So, does their new procedure violate this?

Quote

he Tour announced a 15-minute window “to correct an error on his scorecard, even if he has left the scoring area.”

• If a scorecard is validated in the scoring system and the player has left the scoring area, he may return to correct an error within 15 minutes of validation.
• If a player has left the scoring area and an error is identified before the scorecard is validated in the scoring system, he may return to correct the error within 15 minutes of the error being identified by the scoring official.
• If a player is in the scoring area when the 15 minutes expires, his scorecard is returned when he leaves the scoring area.

Expand  

So, is the PGA Tour rules stating the card is not considered "returned" to the committee until after it is validated, and no 15-minute window is granted? 

As I understand it, the score is considered "returned" when the 15 minute period has elapsed AND the player has left the scoring area.  That's the way I read the abbreviated explanation you quoted, but I haven't read the complete official wording.   I don't know the details of the "scoring system" or what it means by the score being "validated".  As you and I both know, its the detailed wording of the rule that matters, not the press release summarizing the changes.  This complication is one reason I'd resist making the change, rules in general should be as simple as possible, and this change makes it much more complicated in my mind.

 

2 hours ago, GolfLug said:

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

 and this kind of thing happens once or twice a year.  

Obviously it's once too many for them. 

That it happened to a "star" is what made it important to them.  If it happens to a nobody, there would be no change.  Or if it happened to a "villain", think Patrick Reed before he left for LIV, nobody would care.  Its not "who often", its "who".  

[iacas]

7 hours ago, GolfLug said:

And yet mistakes happen. What's wrong in giving them the opportunity to correct it on principle? They are not absolved of their responsibility to get it right.

They have five hours and as much time as they need in the scoring area to get it right.

7 hours ago, GolfLug said:

I agree this is high profile pandering but what's the problem?

It's unnecessary and complicates things.

7 hours ago, GolfLug said:

If this is about getting the scoring information correct at the end of the day then I am okay.

Again, they've had plenty of time to get things right. This just further delays the cutoff point because Spieth had to poop.

7 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The player had plenty of time to correct any mistake under the previous procedures too, this just closes the door a little later.  But its simply not necessary, we see players reporting 400 scores or more each week on the Tour, many times that if we look at women's tours and play around the world, and this kind of thing happens once or twice a year.

Yep.

And like I said, what are they going to do when a Tour player finds a mistake and comes back after 15:30?

Unnecessary and adds complications.

7 hours ago, saevel25 said:

If this rule covers all these tours, do they have the resources of the main PGA tour events to do so? Maybe only the televised events? 

Yeah, when does a player get the 15 minutes and when do they not? Is it uniform across all events on all associated Tours, or just some (most?) PGA Tour events?

[GolfLug]

I guess I have a different view on things having worked in a field all my adult life where singular mistakes are run up the flag pole and correction via overreaction is the norm. Partly to guarantee a non-repeat and partly to appease an overbearing and entitled customer base.

Obviously the PGAT powers to be are a bit jumpier these days with LIV weakening their spines. 

I do agree that this complicates things. Typically it means more job creation somehow. Heh. So there's that. 

[iacas]

31 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I guess I have a different view on things having worked in a field all my adult life where singular mistakes are run up the flag pole and correction via overreaction is the norm. Partly to guarantee a non-repeat and partly to appease an overbearing and entitled customer base.

A player is solely responsible for their score, and when they turn their card in, it's akin to signing a contract. Comparing it to a business and an organizational structure with several levels is a non-starter. The buck stops with the player certifying their score as correct.

[GolfLug]

48 minutes ago, iacas said:

A player is solely responsible for their score, and when they turn their card in, it's akin to signing a contract.

Then I am a even more convinced that all must be done to get it right. And please, I've posted more than once that the players were, are and will continue to be responsible and nothing here changes that. Why are folks continuing to remind me as if I've said otherwise?

48 minutes ago, iacas said:

 Comparing it to a business and an organizational structure with several levels is a non-starter.

Professional golf is not a business? Sorry bossman, Imma have to think about that for a bit. And do none of you agree that this has somewhat to do about the business angle to it? Pandering to the talent. Bit more complex than it had to be but the greater integrity is intact from what I see.They have the right and the means. 

48 minutes ago, iacas said:

The buck stops with the player certifying their score as correct.

Yes...Please... Yes! 

Not sure why y'all think that they haven't thought about all of this, and yet they decided this had to be done. Y'all see the downside and I am seeing both sides and I can see why they did it. They can handle whatever will ensue. And god help the ass clown whose poop won't give a shit about finding home in 15 minutes. We will see what happens then.

Edited June 20 by GolfLug

[Rulesman]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:29 PM, saevel25 said:

Yea, I can see that being read as, here are your options. 

Ive seen text like this, including but not limited to... To make sure people know that these are not the only options. 

If options include, implies here are just two examples, then fine. 

If the USGA/R&A had intended to restrict the options they would have used the word 'only' or some other limiting expression.

[iacas]

8 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Then I am a even more convinced that all must be done to get it right. And please, I've posted more than once that the players were, are and will continue to be responsible and nothing here changes that. Why are folks continuing to remind me as if I've said otherwise?

Professional golf is not a business? Sorry bossman, Imma have to think about that for a bit. And do none of you agree that this has somewhat to do about the business angle to it? Pandering to the talent. Bit more complex than it had to be but the greater integrity is intact from what I see.They have the right and the means. 

Yes...Please... Yes! 

Not sure why y'all think that they haven't thought about all of this, and yet they decided this had to be done. Y'all see the downside and I am seeing both sides and I can see why they did it. They can handle whatever will ensue. And god help the ass clown whose poop won't give a shit about finding home in 15 minutes. We will see what happens then.

Vishal, a player’s score is not an idea to run up the corporate flagpole.

It’s simpler if there sign their card and turn it in.

Again I’ll ask you: what do you think will happen if Jordan has to poop again and it takes him 15:30 to do so when her returned to correct an error?