Ball Lost in the Rough

[xrayvizhen]

This question has probably been discussed previously but a search didn't reveal anything, so I'll pose it this way. Our league generally plays under the official Rules of Golf but there is a "relaxed" (I'll call it) adjustment made regarding balls that get lost in the rough. We obey all the official rules about balls in penalty areas and when hit Out of Bounds (the approved "Local Rule" - drop in the fairway with a two-stroke penalty). but when a ball is lost in the rough guys have historically just dropped a new ball in the general area of where the ball is thought to be with a one-stroke penalty. This, I know, isn't correct. It's either stroke & distance - (which we don't do because the group behind would throw a fit) or handled just like O.B., drop in the fairway with a two-stroke penalty. 

When this was pointed out (by me) there was considerable push-back. Many said if a really lousy shot that happens to go into an area marked with red or yellow stakes or lines is one stroke and a ball in the water is one stroke, why should a bad but not so terrible shot in the rough, but just invisible because it's covered by grass clippings or embedded down in long grass, be two shots? When I pointed out, "Well...that's the rule" some other wag said, "Well the league has been doing it this way for 20 years, because we don't have forecaddies, marshals or TV cameras watching us." Other than this issue we're pretty much spot-on when it comes to the rules but I would really like to know about what other leagues do about this specific issue.  

 

[iacas]

The ball is LOST, so it's a pretty bad shot seeing as how the point of the game is to hit YOUR ball from the tee into the hole in as few strokes as possible. Replacing your ball because you can't find it is pretty bad.

"We've always cheated and breached the rules, so why now that there is an official rule that supports and allows what we do should we adopt it" is certainly a stupid hill on which to choose death, but so be it.

Push for them to adopt the local rule. After all, it's for a ball LOST or OB.

[pganapathy]

I understand, to some extent, when this rule comes into play during the monsoon.  In our home course, balls plug in both the fairway and rough.  They are slowly trying to raise the fairways, improve underground drainage and shape the fairways in such a way that water flows off it.  And I also understand the pain of losing a ball just one foot off the fairway in the rough.  But the rules are clear about a lost ball.  Obeying the rules is what makes golf a great game and levels the playing field for everybody

[saevel25]

Yea it makes no sense to treat OB with the modified local rule and not a lost ball. It falls under the same modified local rule. 

[ChetlovesMer]

17 hours ago, xrayvizhen said:

This question has probably been discussed previously but a search didn't reveal anything, so I'll pose it this way. Our league generally plays under the official Rules of Golf but there is a "relaxed" (I'll call it) adjustment made regarding balls that get lost in the rough. We obey all the official rules about balls in penalty areas and when hit Out of Bounds (the approved "Local Rule" - drop in the fairway with a two-stroke penalty). but when a ball is lost in the rough guys have historically just dropped a new ball in the general area of where the ball is thought to be with a one-stroke penalty. This, I know, isn't correct. It's either stroke & distance - (which we don't do because the group behind would throw a fit) or handled just like O.B., drop in the fairway with a two-stroke penalty. 

When this was pointed out (by me) there was considerable push-back. Many said if a really lousy shot that happens to go into an area marked with red or yellow stakes or lines is one stroke and a ball in the water is one stroke, why should a bad but not so terrible shot in the rough, but just invisible because it's covered by grass clippings or embedded down in long grass, be two shots? When I pointed out, "Well...that's the rule" some other wag said, "Well the league has been doing it this way for 20 years, because we don't have forecaddies, marshals or TV cameras watching us." Other than this issue we're pretty much spot-on when it comes to the rules but I would really like to know about what other leagues do about this specific issue.  

 

OH MY GOSH!!!

I feel your pain! 

The Wednesday League I play in has done it that way forever. (So did the Monday Night league I tried for a couple of years.) I have no idea why. Makes me crazy! Especially since they have a modified local rule which was designed for exactly that purpose! Personally, I don't do it. It hasn't happened to me very much, only once that I can think of, but when it did I demanded to be given a two stroke penalty. They wouldn't give it to me. So, I went all the way back and replayed the shot with a one stroke penalty. The guys I found on the tee box thought I was an insane person... maybe I am. 

But, Man, the rules are the rules and it's not even complicated or confusing. 

Edited June 9 by ChetlovesMer
I'm a terrible speller.

[Elmer]

20 hours ago, xrayvizhen said:

This question has probably been discussed previously but a search didn't reveal anything, so I'll pose it this way. Our league generally plays under the official Rules of Golf but there is a "relaxed" (I'll call it) adjustment made regarding balls that get lost in the rough. We obey all the official rules about balls in penalty areas and when hit Out of Bounds (the approved "Local Rule" - drop in the fairway with a two-stroke penalty). but when a ball is lost in the rough guys have historically just dropped a new ball in the general area of where the ball is thought to be with a one-stroke penalty. This, I know, isn't correct. It's either stroke & distance - (which we don't do because the group behind would throw a fit) or handled just like O.B., drop in the fairway with a two-stroke penalty. 

When this was pointed out (by me) there was considerable push-back. Many said if a really lousy shot that happens to go into an area marked with red or yellow stakes or lines is one stroke and a ball in the water is one stroke, why should a bad but not so terrible shot in the rough, but just invisible because it's covered by grass clippings or embedded down in long grass, be two shots? When I pointed out, "Well...that's the rule" some other wag said, "Well the league has been doing it this way for 20 years, because we don't have forecaddies, marshals or TV cameras watching us." Other than this issue we're pretty much spot-on when it comes to the rules but I would really like to know about what other leagues do about this specific issue.  

 

I played in a league in which the rule for lost ball was 1 stroke and you drop anywhere along the line in which the ball traveled (no closer to the hole).
This also counted for lost balls OB, in rough or even fairway.

I believe the rule was suggested by the course. The league had 60 members and only a 2 hours to get everyone out on the course. So the course itself promotes fast play. I am not even sure that the starter or ranger would let you walk back to the tee!

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, Elmer said:

I played in a league in which the rule for lost ball was 1 stroke and you drop anywhere along the line in which the ball traveled (no closer to the hole).
This also counted for lost balls OB, in rough or even fairway.

I believe the rule was suggested by the course. The league had 60 members and only a 2 hours to get everyone out on the course. So the course itself promotes fast play. I am not even sure that the starter or ranger would let you walk back to the tee!

That have a modified local rule which can be put into affect for this very reason. 

This rule was invented to solve this problem:

 https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html

 

 

[bkuehn1952]

I have to wonder what “in the rough” means. Is the grass adjacent to the fairway so long one can’t find a ball? Or does ‘in the rough” mean everywhere except OB and penalty areas?

I played in a league decades ago. The league played any lost or OB ball as a lateral hazard. I hated the “rule” since it provided a large advantage to players who hit errant shots. I became very good at watching and finding my opponent’s shots. “Here it is Bob, right behind this tree, in the raspberry bush.”

I gave up league play in large part to the lack of following the Rules of Golf. 

 

[ChetlovesMer]

7 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

.... The league played any lost or OB ball as a lateral hazard....

 

I think this is now the norm for weeknight leagues. 
I hate it too. 

Makes no sense to me. Every time I challenge the folks running the league I'm given the same answer "We do it to speed up play." ... HUH? "There's a modified local rule for that!" I scream into the abyss. 

Are the people in the league so bad at math that it actually takes them longer to add two strokes to their score than it takes them to add one stroke to their score!???? 

I don't get it. 

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

I have to wonder what “in the rough” means.

Why does it matter? If the ball is lost… it's lost.

[SG11118]

I get the argument that the guys in your league are making - It isn't 100% fair that when you hit an OK shot that you get penalized for something the guys on TV would not have to worry about.  It isn't 100% fair that the pros get to play the courses every day and know exactly where they might have trouble with long rough and your league is a bunch of amateurs trying to have fun once a week and do not have the time to scout where maintenance might be a little behind with mowing.  

The best argument you can make to your league is to prove to them that it is way fairer to make everyone play by the rules than it is for a person to take an illegal free drop and beat the rest of the league because of it. 

I've given up on trying to change things at my course.  I know that very few people are playing 100% by the rules, and it is probably much worse than it is in your league.  I've come to be ok with it.  I want people to be golfing and having fun.  I know where I stack up against the golf course every round.  

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, SG11118 said:

It isn't 100% fair that when you hit an OK shot that you get penalized for something the guys on TV would not have to worry about. 

I mean, we don't play with thousands of fans or people who help find a golf ball. I mean, there are sometimes when I am on another hole, see a ball hit a tree and go somewhere stupid. I wait a bit and help out the guy find the ball. Is that unfair for other golfers who don't get that help? Should that be against the rules? I feel like being a good person is something people should due. It isn't like you never get help in finding your golf ball. 

1 hour ago, SG11118 said:

It isn't 100% fair that the pros get to play the courses every day and know exactly where they might have trouble with long rough and your league is a bunch of amateurs trying to have fun once a week and do not have the time to scout where maintenance might be a little behind with mowing.  

Very low % this happens. Not many courses have that many shots where you need course knowledge, unless it is a gimmick course. Generally, you can figure it out on the course just fine. 

 

[Elmer]

44 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I mean, we don't play with thousands of fans or people who help find a golf ball. I mean, there are sometimes when I am on another hole, see a ball hit a tree and go somewhere stupid. I wait a bit and help out the guy find the ball. Is that unfair for other golfers who don't get that help? Should that be against the rules? I feel like being a good person is something people should due. It isn't like you never get help in finding your golf ball. 

This!!!!!
I will even throw my hat down over the ball to mark the sport and we will catch up the next hole. 

Reminds me of league play couple weeks ago. 
My group on the green of a par 5. When we were done putting one of the guys notices a ball at the back of the green. it had not been there when we got to the green.
So the player picked up the ball, cause who doesnt want a free ball.
at the19th hole and the group behind us asked if had found a top-flight (ball name changed to protect the participants) and then one guys says "yeah Bobby found it and picked it up".
Since the golfer lost his ball on a blind shot, he had to take the penalty (league rule 1 stroke) and ended up loosing the match by 1 stroke and 1 hole (matches consist of 2 points match play, 2 points stoke).
 

golfer tried to plead with league leadership, but lost is lost.
Suffice to say Bobby not been seen around the 19th in a few weeks!

[xrayvizhen]

The Rules of Golf are not simple and whoever said they are is being disingenuous. Here are some examples:

If a ball is "not found" in a penalty area but it is known or "virtually certain" that it is in a penalty area, is it not lost therefore penalty relief may be taken, which means either drop in the penalty area, or within two club lengths or take back on the line relief (if red penalty area) and it's a one stroke penalty?? Yet, the rough is not a penalty area, so even if you know it's somewhere in the rough it's just rough and not a penalty area so it's two strokes??  Is that logical?

Now here's another thing. We have a lot of woods at our course and there are red stakes at most of the borders. So, the woods are therefore a penalty area, no? If you slice a banana-ball deep into the woods and it's not found, it's not just virtually certain it's in the woods, it's sure as shit it's in the woods, so again, you drop at the edge of the woods and it's a one stroke penalty. Yes? No? Maybe? 

There's also a rule somewhere, I believe, that says if a penalty area doesn't have a color marker, then it's considered a red penalty area. Again, what about the rough? The logic isn't quite there. It's hard to argue with those who just throw down a ball regardless of where the hell it went missing and they give themselves a one-stroke penalty. (Except for Out of Bounds...that's pretty clear-cut. with the new "Local Rule.")

 

Edited June 11 by xrayvizhen

[SG11118]

7 hours ago, saevel25 said:

9 hours ago, SG11118 said:

It isn't 100% fair that the pros get to play the courses every day and know exactly where they might have trouble with long rough and your league is a bunch of amateurs trying to have fun once a week and do not have the time to scout where maintenance might be a little behind with mowing.  

Very low % this happens. Not many courses have that many shots where you need course knowledge, unless it is a gimmick course. Generally, you can figure it out on the course just fine. 

I'm more talking about maintenance schedules.  There are fertile times in the year where our rough probably grows close to an inch a day.  It is pretty easy to find your golf ball in 2" rough.  It becomes a little more questionable to find it in 4" + rough.  One guy at our course typically is on the rough mower and is able to make it through the course in maybe 2 1/2 days.  If I catch a spot where he hasn't mowed it in 2 1/2 days, it is going to be tricker to find my ball.      

[ChetlovesMer]

7 hours ago, xrayvizhen said:

The Rules of Golf are not simple and whoever said they are is being disingenuous.

 

This is a true statement. I really don't mind if somebody doesn't know the rules. (And honestly, if it isn't league play or tournament play, do what ever you want. As somebody said earlier everyone loves a vanity capper come tournament time.)

During the tournaments I've played in my life pretty much every tournament there comes a time during the days you are out there when we have to have a discussion about a rule. Sometimes we call it in. Sometimes we look it up on our phone. Sometimes we just play two balls in and then get with the tournament director before signing the card and try to get it right. That happens and it's fine. The tournaments I play almost never have a rules official nearby. 

But, I don't think that's what we are talking about here. I think in this instance we are talking about a situation where everyone knows the rule, but some choose not to play the rule because they don't like the rule. 

When ever you have to justify your score with an If/Then statement, you're almost always in the wrong. Examples: "If I would have missed to the left and not to the right, then I would have only had a one stroke penalty." , "If I would have found my ball which I know is in the fairway, then I wouldn't have had any penalty at all." , Or "If there was just a way to get across that stream right there I could play my ball, then I wouldn't have to take a penalty." (That last one was actually said by a guy I was playing against as a justification for a ball he thought he shouldn't have to take a penalty stroke for hitting.)

Once more, if you are just farting around on the course, then play by what ever rules your ego demands. I, personally, think its a mistake and you are lying to yourself, but to each his own. 
If you are playing a tournament, or in a league and you know the rule, you should play by the rule. You owe it to the others playing in the tournament, and to yourself and to your handicap to follow the rules. 

 

[iacas]

8 hours ago, xrayvizhen said:

The Rules of Golf are not simple and whoever said they are is being disingenuous.

99% of the rules situations a golfer encounters are simple.

The first example you gave simply relies on the golf definition of "lost." That's still simple. Basically, "if you know your ball is in the water, you don't have to find it to play under that rule." Pretty simple.

8 hours ago, xrayvizhen said:

which means either drop in the penalty area, or within two club lengths or take back on the line relief (if red penalty area)

No, you've managed to get that one almost completely wrong.

• You don't drop in the penalty area.
• The two club lengths thing is red only.
• The back on a line is always available.

8 hours ago, xrayvizhen said:

Yet, the rough is not a penalty area, so even if you know it's somewhere in the rough it's just rough and not a penalty area so it's two strokes?? Is that logical?

Yes, it's logical.

8 hours ago, xrayvizhen said:

So, the woods are therefore a penalty area, no? If you slice a banana-ball deep into the woods and it's not found, it's not just virtually certain it's in the woods, it's sure as shit it's in the woods, so again, you drop at the edge of the woods and it's a one stroke penalty. Yes? No? Maybe?

When they're marked, they are. When they're just a group of trees…

8 hours ago, xrayvizhen said:

There's also a rule somewhere, I believe, that says if a penalty area doesn't have a color marker, then it's considered a red penalty area.

The rule says (in the definitions, emphasis mine):

If a Committee has mistakenly excluded an area of water that is clearly part of a penalty area when defining its edge (such as by placing stakes in a location that means there is a portion of water from the penalty area that appears to be in the general area), that area is part of the penalty area.

When the edge of a body of water is not defined by the Committee, the edge of that penalty area is defined by its natural boundaries (that is, where the ground slopes down to form the depression that can hold the water).

It does not apply to areas of trees or the rough. For those things to be PAs, the Committee must define them as such. "Auto-PAs" are basically ponds, creeks, etc. that are obviously what used to be called "water hazards."

8 hours ago, xrayvizhen said:

Again, what about the rough? The logic isn't quite there.

Yes, it is.

---

Also, I hate the general idea that the Rules of Golf are written for the PGA Tour, so I hate the "we don't have TV or spectators" line of excuse-making and rationalizing. It can't be farther from the truth. Yes, the rules makers consider things that they've seen on TV because it starts a discourse about some things… but they write the rules for the 99.9% of golfers that play day to day on a golf course somewhere for their own enjoyment, not to feed their families. And one of the greatest things about golf is that we all play under the same rules. Yet cheaters and people who want to make excuses or rationalize… break that connection willingly. Willfully.

It's disappointing. It's gross.

[saevel25]

Deleting my entire post because @iacas beat me to it, and I was basically quoted the same stuff.  🤣

I 100% agree. It sucks you lose a golf ball in the rough. The rules are written in a way where one rule governs one situation. This makes executing the rules simple. It isn't 20+ "IF THEN" statements to cover all possible situations. It doesn't need to be that convoluted. 

If you hate the lost ball in the rough and don't want to make the walk of shame back to the tee box, then play with the MLR and take your two-stroke penalty.