How do you spot a sandbagger?

[shredfit]

I don't find a 79 too far off if a 13 hdcp is playing very well.

If you wanna see sandbaggers, come to Minnesota. I've been in a couple shortstop tourneys that 4th and 5th flight winners shot 2 and 3 over Championship Flight's winner... (not net either)

My buddies and I always think that it makes them look like idiots... Sure, they get a flight trophey and a little proshop swag... but come on, it cannot make them feel good.

[Mr.Buckethead]

I will have to check the paper to see how the guy finished up in the tournament. The more I talked with him the more I think he just had one hell of a round.

He could have just had the round of a lifetime. According to the graph Iacas posted, it is a 323-1 chance of shooting six strokes lower than your handicap in a tournament.

Course is par 72, he is a 13. 85-79= -6....if I have my math right. Course rating 71.8, slope of 131.

So, any 13 handicappers that want to bet whether they can shoot a 79 just let me know. I will take those odds every day.

[niblick]

I've had a few instances where I might have been perceived as a sandbagger and wasn't at all. I got invited to join a group on the second tee. I told them my handicap was 20, which it was at the time. They were playing quarter skins and asked me to join their game. I accepted, and proceeded to hit a wedge to 10 feet and make birdie. I got some pretty funny looks.

[Mr.Buckethead]

So the guy shot an 80 today. 79 & 80 in a two day flighted tournament. He won my flight in a walk and would have finished one stroke off first in the next flight.

Based on the USGA chart Iacas posted, he had a 1 in 1,708 chance of shooting those two rounds in a row.

[$2 Nassau]

  Mr.Buckethead said:

I will have to check the paper to see how the guy finished up in the tournament. The more I talked with him the more I think he just had one hell of a round.

I didn't do it in a tourney, but recently (my index was 13.5 at the time) I shot a 77 on 69.3 / 123. Differential of 7.1, 6.4 strokes below my index.

Although it appears the course you mention above is rated as much more difficult. Although I recently shot an 81 on 72.3 / 132, also not in a tourney. (I don't play in tourney's) It's possible. Especially when you are improving. There are all different types of 13 handicaps out there. There are the perpetual 13's that have been playing to that number for years. But there is also the 13's, who a few months ago was a 15 and their game is just simply improving. Like me!

[Mr.Buckethead]

This guy has been playing for years. Mid-40's. He wasn't new to golf.

For someone who said he hasn't played in a while because of a divorce, he played lights out.


4th flight winning score was 182
3rd flight winning score was 159 (the flight he won)
2nd flight winning score was 158
1st flight winning score was 147
Championship flight was 138

Not a statistician but those scores all seem to have a similar spread (11-9 strokes between flights) except for the third.

[$2 Nassau]

  Mr.Buckethead said:

This guy has been playing for years. Mid-40's. He wasn't new to golf.

That does look strange. But you need to know the guy too before you judge, and I don't (obviously). The 85 isn't a big deal. The 79 may riase a few eyebrows, but hey people get hot sometimes.

Although for a 13 who hasn't played in a while that is damn good golf. This is why I never play in tourney's. Seems like there are always people sandbagging so it's impossible to win, then, if you play well you get accused of sandbagging. Either way, you lose.

[clemsontiger]

You can tell when they are trying to sandbag. Normally it is a guy that shoots really low and has that better handicapp. It also depends on the course that they play everyday. They might play on a really hard course and have a 13 handicap and when they play on other courses that are easier, they might shoot something better.

There could be a lot of situations to make this happen. Interesting to think about though.

[LilGasPasser]

Was he wearing one of these?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...ss_bun35_8.jpg

[connor35]

79 off a 13 is totally doable.

You can never really tell a sandbagger from one single round anyway.

Some guys are highly variable, especially guys with long drivers that can spray. On days they keep their drives in the fairway maybe they'll score 79-80. On a bad day when they're spraying the ball, maybe they shot 95-100. I know, I'm such a player.

[tjy355]

Don't remember if it was here or not, but someone posted this link to "The Pope of Slope"

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/index.html

Good stuff there about the (USGA) handicap system and how to recognise and prevent sandbagging.

It should be pointed out that many state associations allow handicap lookups. You can check out a suspected sandbagger by looking at the scores they post.

The USGA system allows committees to lower a player's handicap if their tournament scores are consistently lower than non-tournament scores.

[NM Golf]

How do you spot a sandbagger?

1. Has a career low round only when it counts.
2. Plays every weekend but only has 5 scores in the GHIN computer and they're all high.
3. Says things like "It possible for a 15 handicap to shoot 75" or "I just got hot today" or "I've never putted that well before".
4. Are always in the money in every tournament.
5. Bought their last $1000 set of irons using money won in golf tournaments
6. Won't play ANYONE straight up.

Sandbagging has effectively killed club tournaments where I play. I think sandbagging is the absolute worst kind of cheating a person can do. I would rather have someone bump it in the rough and play me straight up than scalp me in a net match.

[connor35]

  NM Golf said:

Sandbagging has effectively killed club tournaments where I play.

I think this says something about the club -- and I definitely don't mean any disrespect. But it sounds like the foxes are running the henhouse.

At my place we have a men's golf group and while we all have GHIN handicaps, we have a "within group" handicap. Here only scores in Men's group play count for handicap. And since you're always in foursomes with other men's group members (and we play by ALL rules) any person's score is going to be legitimate. No outside rounds (either at other courses or home course play outside the men's group) is allowed for the our men's group play handicap. But all scores within men's group competition counts. Since our group plays every Saturday and Sunday (one needn't play every day of course) everyone tends to have a legitimate handicap. Perhaps you could suggest such a system at your club. This also discourages anyone within our group from having a sandbagging handicap for outside group play, because if his GHIN were radically different from the men's group handicap, it would be evident and he might be called out.

[NM Golf]

  connor35 said:

I think this says something about the club -- and I definitely don't mean any disrespect. But it sounds like the foxes are running the henhouse.

Its everywhere. We have 300+ members in our association at a public golf course. It is impossible to police the membership and we are not a league, we have one event a month so getting a handicap using tournament scores only is impossible. We do all types of things to try and discourage sandbagging but if someone wants to cheat they are going to cheat, thats the way it goes.

[connor35]

  NM Golf said:

Its everywhere. We have 300+ members in our association at a public golf course. It is impossible to police the membership and we are not a league, we have one event a month so getting a handicap using tournament scores only is impossible. We do all types of things to try and discourage sandbagging but if someone wants to cheat they are going to cheat, thats the way it goes.

That's too bad, sorry to hear it. I really enjoy friendly competition among a decent sized group, but I understand there is nothing you can do.

And it's a shame too. Sandbagging is like beating up a kid and taking his candy. I'm just not sure how anyone can feel good about themselves for doing it. Especially since your such a fine player, is there a group to get a scratch game with?

[pjsnyc]

It might just be me, but I tend to play pretty well the first time out when not touching the sticks for a couple of months...then I play worse...then I get better (all as the year progresses). I guess when its the first time out in a while, I just think simplistically (see the ball - hit the ball) and not get all tangled up in too many swing thoughts. So perhaps thats what happened to ur guy?

[longfornothing]

  connor35 said:

79 off a 13 is totally doable.

I'm that guy too. I was a 20, out of no where one day I shoot an 80 in a Am Tour event. Missed a 3ft putt on 18 for a 79. Very next day playing with my buddies, I shot a 96. Over the next few months I broke 90 once. Then all of a sudden I shot an 83 in another event on the Am Tour.

What is funny, is that at my first event, a guy in the 20+ flight shot a 79. I was calling him a sandbagger. A few events later, I was that guy. Then I knew he wasn't really a sandbagger, just a regular inconsistent player who had a good day. It happens. I think what happens a lot is that during my casual rounds I play the back tee's, but during the events, they play us from the forward tee's. I'm a long hitter and if I'm driving the ball well, I'm putting for birdie/eagle on a lot of holes. When I make a few, I shoot well. 80% of the time I don't make many. The other factor is how many OB and Hazard penalty strokes I earn. On the days that I shoot low, I don't have any OB strokes and I don't go for hero shots. Just laying up can take me from a 92 to a 87, eliminate the duffed chips/pitches, make a few putts, and waaalaaa.....a 79. So it's very possible a 13 can shoot a 79. Matter of fact, it happens quite a bit on our tour. Also, the same guy will shoot a 90 the next event. Just the nature of the game. Ever notice how many solid tour players miss cuts from week to week? One week Sean O'hair looks like the second coming, then the next two events he can't make the cut. It's hard to play consistent, even for the Tour pros.

[Mr.Buckethead]

Those of you that keep saying a 79 is reasonable for a 13 must not understand statistics. Oh well.

An update. After last night's GHIN revision, the bagger went from an 11.1 to a 10.1 and his handicap is now restricted. I think that means that it is not allowed to go higher than where it is now.