Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?

[phan52]

So guys were cheating I guess?  Too bad they didn't have cameras on them ;-)

It wasn't cheating. Hell, Gary Player set the course record while doing it.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

So guys were cheating I guess?  Too bad they didn't have cameras on them ;-)

It wasn't cheating. Hell, Gary Player set the course record while doing it.

Then they weren't playing by the rules of golf.  You can say it all you want but the rules say different.

[Golfingdad]

It wasn't cheating. Hell, Gary Player set the course record while doing it.

Fourputt posted rule 21, which clearly states that you have to finish a hole with the same ball you start it with, save for the obvious exceptions, none of which is "because I feel like switching."

How you can claim that these guys all did something that was clearly in opposition with the rules, yet was not cheating?

[phan52]

Fourputt posted rule 21, which clearly states that you have to finish a hole with the same ball you start it with, save for the obvious exceptions, none of which is "because I feel like switching."

How you can claim that these guys all did something that was clearly in opposition with the rules, yet was not cheating?

I apologize. I got mixed up on what they did (It WAS 40 years ago). I just spoke with my brother, who also caddied in the event for years, and he reminded me that the only time  they changed balls on the green was in the pro-am.

When they played the hole, even in the tournament proper, they did change the ball to play the hole, but finished the hole with the same ball. I distinctly remember Johnny Potts carrying a sleeve of different balls for that hole, and Jerry McGee saying, "gimme one of those rocks" when he got to that tee.

[JRoy]

I've been lucky enough to see all of Jack's and Tiger's careers. And I put Jack ahead of Tiger. In time I may change that but as of now Jack had a better career in my mind. Not just the 18 pro majors but the 19 seconds and 56 top fives in majors with the likes of Lee,Arnold,Tom Watson, Floyd, Gary Player pushing him not folding up like the pros did with tiger early in his career. The amount of wins tiger has is amazing, but being able to fly to the tournaments in your own jet from the start of your career makes that a lot more possible. Jack early on drove the wagon filled with his kids and the smell of dirty diapers to the tournaments while staying in small hotel rooms. Later Jack flew with Arnie and the family in his jet. The amount of tournaments now with the travel means and given endorsements I think in the coming years we may see a few players reach the 100 win career mark. But 18 Major wins again I'm not so sure and definitely no 19 seconds. Good luck Tiger, you are going to have to learn how to come from behind as you age, and your competition no longer folding.

[k-troop]

I've been lucky enough to see all of Jack's and Tiger's careers. And I put Jack ahead of Tiger. In time I may change that but as of now Jack had a better career in my mind. Not just the 18 pro majors but the 19 seconds and 56 top fives in majors with the likes of Lee,Arnold,Tom Watson, Floyd, Gary Player pushing him not folding up like the pros did with tiger early in his career. The amount of wins tiger has is amazing, but being able to fly to the tournaments in your own jet from the start of your career makes that a lot more possible. Jack early on drove the wagon filled with his kids and the smell of dirty diapers to the tournaments while staying in small hotel rooms. Later Jack flew with Arnie and the family in his jet. The amount of tournaments now with the travel means and given endorsements I think in the coming years we may see a few players reach the 100 win career mark. But 18 Major wins again I'm not so sure and definitely no 19 seconds. Good luck Tiger, you are going to have to learn how to come from behind as you age, and your competition no longer folding.

You may have a point that Tiger had an easier time at the start due to a flood of cash as soon as he turned pro, but I see no logic to the bolded part.  The Jet isn't going to win the tournament.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRoy

I've been lucky enough to see all of Jack's and Tiger's careers. And I put Jack ahead of Tiger. In time I may change that but as of now Jack had a better career in my mind. Not just the 18 pro majors but the 19 seconds and 56 top fives in majors with the likes of Lee,Arnold,Tom Watson, Floyd, Gary Player pushing him not folding up like the pros did with tiger early in his career. The amount of wins tiger has is amazing, but being able to fly to the tournaments in your own jet from the start of your career makes that a lot more possible. Jack early on drove the wagon filled with his kids and the smell of dirty diapers to the tournaments while staying in small hotel rooms. Later Jack flew with Arnie and the family in his jet. The amount of tournaments now with the travel means and given endorsements I think in the coming years we may see a few players reach the 100 win career mark. But 18 Major wins again I'm not so sure and definitely no 19 seconds. Good luck Tiger, you are going to have to learn how to come from behind as you age, and your competition no longer folding.

You may have a point that Tiger had an easier time at the start due to a flood of cash as soon as he turned pro, but I see no logic to the bolded part.  The Jet isn't going to win the tournament.

No, but it makes traveling across the country a lot less stressful.   I recall a story a while back about a Tour player who was sitting in a commercial jet at the gate, and while looking out the window watched the baggage cart tractor run over his golf bag.  Now he has to scramble to find a new set and learn to play them in 2 days (this was during or just after Jack's era, before the days of the tour club fitting van).

[k-troop]

No, but it makes traveling across the country a lot less stressful.   I recall a story a while back about a Tour player who was sitting in a commercial jet at the gate, and while looking out the window watched the baggage cart tractor run over his golf bag.  Now he has to scramble to find a new set and learn to play them in 2 days (this was during Jack's era, before the days of the tour club fitting van).

So it sounds like we agree 100%:  having a jet will minimize the stress/fatigue/mishaps associated with cross-country travel, but the jet won't win the tournament.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Every player with 2 PGA Tour wins has a jet, so it's not like buying a jet is going to suddenly vault you to 50+ wins as was suggested by the comment I quoted.

[JRoy]

Bolded part is a accident. What a jet can do is take you there to more tournaments rested and ready to play. Giving you a lot more opportunities to play your best. You are right you still need to win some of those opportunities.

[turtleback]

But since Jack got a jet early on, when pretty much only he and Arnold had them and the other guys were driving in that station wagon with the wife and kids, he actually had much bigger edge over most of his competition. Now, Tiger may have a jet but so do other guys. And the ones that don't, fly first class. Other than John Daly, who even drives to events any more? So who REALLY had the advantage in mode of traveling?

[phan52]

I've been lucky enough to see all of Jack's and Tiger's careers. And I put Jack ahead of Tiger. In time I may change that but as of now Jack had a better career in my mind. Not just the 18 pro majors but the 19 seconds and 56 top fives in majors with the likes of Lee,Arnold,Tom Watson, Floyd, Gary Player pushing him not folding up like the pros did with tiger early in his career. The amount of wins tiger has is amazing, but being able to fly to the tournaments in your own jet from the start of your career makes that a lot more possible. Jack early on drove the wagon filled with his kids and the smell of dirty diapers to the tournaments while staying in small hotel rooms. Later Jack flew with Arnie and the family in his jet. The amount of tournaments now with the travel means and given endorsements I think in the coming years we may see a few players reach the 100 win career mark. But 18 Major wins again I'm not so sure and definitely no 19 seconds. Good luck Tiger, you are going to have to learn how to come from behind as you age, and your competition no longer folding.

My sister babysat for two Nicklaus babies one year because Jack was leading the tournament and Barbara wanted to follow him on Sunday. They had to ask around for help and my sister got the gig.

Jack won BTW, and his wife drove home from Philly with the kids while he got a ride with Gary Player to NY to fly commercial to the British Open, where he finished second at St. Andrews. It was a different world.

[2put]

"Jack had tougher competition"? You can't really be serious, right?

[2put]

Oh yea, and don't forget it was uphill in both directions.

[busapp]

It is hard to compare golfers from different eras.  If Jack would have had the advantages of equipment, training, technology and history which Tiger has taken advantage of, then likely the two would be relatively equal.  But this is mere fantasizing.  The point is that Tiger has taken advantage of modern technology and advantages.  As a result, he is the greater golfer.  In addition, Tiger has impacted the game in a larger manner than even Jack.  Tiger is a phenomenon, a larger than life figure, who has touched almost all golfers, and numerous people who have never played golf.  He has attracted African Americans into golf, he has encouraged all ethnic groups, and has changed the face of golf, the open-ness of golf forever.  He did not do this by intention, but just be being who he was at the right time in history.  What truly sets Tiger apart is the impact he has had on the young golfers.  What an inspiration he has been (even though in his private life he has been a dismal failure).  He motivated a who generation of young golfers to take up the game, to become more physically fit, and to aim for the highest levels.  I do not encourage young golfers to emulate Tiger because of his terrible private life, but his influence has been monumental.  As a result, he may well be the greatest athlete in any sport of the current era.  Only Mohammed Ali comes to mind as someone who has a comparable impact in the world of sport.

[Jakester23]

Another factor I haven't see mentioned is the amount of pressure on Jack compared to Tiger. I'm sure there was pressure during the Annies arm era but once Jack was considered the man he had no pressure. Its not like every year Jack didn't win a major people in the media were questioning if he was ever going to win another one. Today's media puts a lot more pressure on Tiger than Jack ever had. Jacks goal was 82 he didn't get there any no one questions his achievements because of that. Why is it ok for Jack but not ok for Tiger? If he doesn't get to 19 but beats Jack in every other category how has he not done enough to be considered the best?

[stephenf]

I wasn't alive at jack's prime so I go with tiger being the greatest golfer, also tiger can rip it further, has a better short game, and he's a built athlete, what else is their to say?

Here's "what else their is to say":

1.  What in the world does "built athlete" have to do with it?  Jack was by far the better proven multisport athlete.  Stop talking like an adolescent with a crush.

2.  Woods can't "rip it further," no.  Judging by Jack's distance with the old clubs when he was a young player, he would've been absolutely off the charts with today's equipment.  Certainly at least as far as Woods, and much straighter.  Much.

3.  Woods has an absolutely astounding short game, it's true.  Jack's was good enough to win 18 majors in an era when he had to beat top competition like Palmer, Player, Trevino, Casper, Watson, et al.

4.  The idea that you would name one guy a better player because you "weren't alive" during the other player's prime ought to be enough to disqualify you from being taken seriously.

[stephenf]

I believe that the only fair thing to do is compare the numbers of each golfer to the other. Take the first seven years of Jack's career and put them next to Tiger's. You cannot argue with numbers. Each played in a different era. They are both icons for their sport. It would be very cool to see them go head-to-head when both were say 25 years old though. To hard to choose.

Why would you take only the first seven years?

[phan52]

Another factor I haven't see mentioned is the amount of pressure on Jack compared to Tiger. I'm sure there was pressure during the Annies arm era but once Jack was considered the man he had no pressure. Its not like every year Jack didn't win a major people in the media were questioning if he was ever going to win another one. Today's media puts a lot more pressure on Tiger than Jack ever had. Jacks goal was 82 he didn't get there any no one questions his achievements because of that. Why is it ok for Jack but not ok for Tiger? If he doesn't get to 19 but beats Jack in every other category how has he not done enough to be considered the best?

Because, like you, everybody has an opinion based on their subjective view of the issue.