Course Handicaps

[SpacklersEdge]

How are course ratings and slopes determined. I have been paying attention of course as I use them for determining my handicap. There is one course near me that is very easy, it's a brand new course with no trees, no water, no OB anywhere etc. This course plays to a 69.8/120 from the tips (6308 yards. So a score of 72 gets you about a 2.1 index for the round.

Another course is a links style. I don't play tips here, but rather I play the second longest tees. This course has fescue all around on every hole. Much trickier greens, oddly shaped fairways, some are split forcing you to decide whether to lay up or not. Plenty of white staked OB on 7-8 of the holes, etc, etc. This course plays to a 71.8/128 from the tees I play (Par 71, 6589 yards). So a score of par gets you an index of -0.7.

How are these ratings determined, and does anyone else see inconsistencies in the process? I can shoot a low 80's score on the first course time and time again, but on the second, I have trouble breaking 95.

This seems mis-leading, if I were to play the easier course everyday, my handicap would be much lower. It seems the ratings are based solely on distance to me, or a much higher percentage weighted to that. If everyone could hit every shot straight, and distance was the only difference, the ratings would make more sense.

[alf174]

The Golf Association of Michigan (GAM), the governing body for amateur golf in the state, describes the process here .

[taylor_made809]

The Golf Association of Michigan (GAM), the governing body for amateur golf in the state, describes the process

I have always wondered that ever since I started playing. Kudos to you!

[RemyM]

How are course ratings and slopes determined.

http://www.usga.org/handicapping/cou...ourse-Ratings/

[msd3075]

To understand how Course Rating and Course Slope are calculated, you have to understand where they come from and the thinking/reasoning behind each number.

Course Rating is the average of the "10 best out of 20" scores for a scratch golfer. To think of it in the opposite way, someone with a 0.0 handicap index will average the Course Rating on all the scores that are counting toward their handicap (best 10 scores out of last 20 rounds).

The Slope is then calcuated using the Bogey Rating. The Bogey Rating is similar to the Course rating but instead calcuates what a "bogey golfer" will shoot on handicap-counting rounds. What the slope represents is the difference between these two ratings. A higher slope means that a bogey golfer will struggle more in relation to a scratch golfer and in turn should receive a higher course handicap.

How each of these ratings are calculated cannot really be described by anyone on here seeing as it's a very complicated rating process. If I remember correctly from an article I read a few months ago (can't remember where it was from), several representatives from teh USGA go out and survey the course, where hazards are located, where OB is and how it comes into play, the contours and size of the greens, elevation changes, total effective yardage from each tee box, and so on. All of this is calculated to determine what the rating is.

The problem with this system is that not all "scratch golfers" or "bogey golfers" are alike. You can have two 18 handicap golfers that have completely different games to the point where what might be a big hazard/obsticle for one might not even come into play for another. The handicap/course rating system does not take this into account. The main problem though is that there really isn't a way to take this into account except for each player to have a handicap index established at that given course so that all is made equal. If oyu are playing a course for the first time, this obviously cannot be done.

[iacas]

Course Rating is the average of the "10 best out of 20" scores for a scratch golfer.

Not quite... in a way, you're confusing cause and effect. I realize you're explaining it in a way that makes sense, but let's just cite the actual definition.

Source: USGA Handicap Manual A "USGA Course Rating" is the USGA's mark that indicates the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for a scratch golfer under normal course and weather conditions. It is expressed as strokes taken to one decimal place, and is based on yardage and other obstacles to the extent that they affect the scoring ability of a scratch golfer.

In other words, to be a scratch golfer your ten best of your last 20 scores should average really close to the course rating - not the other way around. In reality, the course rating is determined by looking at the various things on a course - topography, length, etc. - and a calculation spits out the course rating. It takes a lot of effort and knowledge on the part of the rating team to get it right, because it's easy to be off by a bit and thus negatively (or positively) affect that course's membership from playing to their handicaps elsewhere. That becomes less of an issue as the handicap increases - the difference between an 18.1 and an 18.4 isn't nearly so much as between a 0.8 and a 1.1.

The Slope is then calcuated using the Bogey Rating. The Bogey Rating is similar to the Course rating but instead calcuates what a "bogey golfer" will shoot on handicap-counting rounds.

I know what you're saying, but be careful with the wording. Some people might take that to mean a bogey golfer will shoot 120 on a course with a 120 slope.

In determining a slope value, course raters DO determine a course rating for the bogey golfer (relative to the course rating), then they multiply by a standard figure to determine the slope. The slope itself, as I'm sure you know but which you may lead people to believe, is NOT the score of the bogey golfer.

What the slope represents is the difference between these two ratings. A higher slope means that a bogey golfer will struggle more in relation to a scratch golfer and in turn should receive a higher course handicap.

Indeed.

How each of these ratings are calculated cannot really be described by anyone on here seeing as it's a very complicated rating process.

Well, as a course rater, I can describe it, but wouldn't want to. There are whole manuals that describe the process. It comes down to things like "how many slopes or of one foot for every three feet horizontally" are there within five yards of the green" and things like that. How dense the trees are. How close they are to the fairway. Whether the landing area is flat. Bunkers. Water. Forced carries. Psychological factors. Wind can be a factor... it's a lot of stuff thrown together.

If I remember correctly from an article I read a few months ago (can't remember where it was from), several representatives from teh USGA go out and survey the course

Usually your local/state golf association, actually.

The problem with this system is that not all "scratch golfers" or "bogey golfers" are alike. You can have two 18 handicap golfers that have completely different games to the point where what might be a big hazard/obsticle for one might not even come into play for another.

That's true. But another nit-picked point: I think the rating manuals state that the average "bogey golfer" will play to about a 20.0 index. The term "bogey golfer" pre-dates course ratings and slope and was just adopted, but it isn't literal.

I don't mean my post to come off as argumentative - you did a lot to explain things. I hope to have just put a bit of a finer tuning on what you said, building off it.

[msd3075]

Not quite... in a way, you're confusing cause and effect. I realize you're explaining it in a way that makes sense, but let's just cite the actual definition.

How is that different from what I said?

Course Rating = what a scratch golfer should shoot on a handicap-counting round Explaining it forward or reverse still states the same thing. Say I have a 0.0 index and usually play at a course with a 72.0 course rating. If I go play the course across the street with a 75.0 course rating and play 20 rounds, the average of my 10 best scores should be very close to 75. How is that any different?

I know what you're saying, but be careful with the wording. Some people might take that to mean a bogey golfer will shoot 120 on a course with a 120 slope.

Again, same thing as what I stated.

Well, as a course rater, I can describe it, but wouldn't want to. There are whole manuals that describe the process. It comes down to things like "how many slopes or of one foot for every three feet horizontally" are there within five yards of the green" and things like that. How dense the trees are. How close they are to the fairway. Whether the landing area is flat. Bunkers. Water. Forced carries. Psychological factors. Wind can be a factor... it's a lot of stuff thrown together.

The problem though is that different conditions affect players differently. People who can bomb their drives aren't as worried about forces carries. People with great short games aren't as scared or heavliy guarded greens with bunkers everywhere. The problem with that is that it's a problem that really has no solution.

That's true. But another nit-picked point: I think the rating manuals state that the average "bogey golfer" will play to about a 20.0 index. The term "bogey golfer" pre-dates course ratings and slope and was just adopted, but it isn't literal.

I knew the term "bogey golfer" but didn't really know what the actual handicap it was based off of. The 18.0 was just kinda as an example for the situation it was described within.

I don't mean my post to come off as argumentative - you did a lot to explain things. I hope to have just put a bit of a finer tuning on what you said, building off it.

Any discussion on this is good because there is a huge misconception when it comes to handicaps, course rating, and slope.

One example is how people will compare the slope of two different courses to determine which is more difficult. If my understanding is correct (I'm assuming it is), the slope's only purpose is to determine the gap between the "course rating" and the "bogey rating". If you have a course with a very high course rating but a moderate slope (75.0/125), it could be much more difficult for the average golfer than a course with a loer course rating but a higher slope (71.0/145).

[woodzie264]

what would be considered an "average" slope? 118? 120? I realized the higher the slope, the harder the course; but would be considered an average rating?

[RemyM]

what would be considered an "average" slope? 118? 120? I realized the higher the slope, the harder the course; but would be considered an average rating?

113 is the slope of a course with "average difficulty". That's why it's the number used in the calculation of course handicaps.

Index times slope divided by 113.

[iacas]

How is that different from what I said?

You implied that cause and effect were switched. Explaining it backwards doesn't state the same thing. The question is "how do they determine a course rating" and the answer is not "they look at the ten best of 20 scores for scratch golfers."

Again, same thing as what I stated.

It really wasn't... you've got to be careful with language. You said the "The Bogey Rating is similar to the Course rating but instead calcuates what a "bogey golfer" will shoot on handicap-counting rounds."

The bogey rating doesn't "calculate" anything. I agree, it's nit-picky, but with the rules and handicaps and such I think it's important to be nit-picky about the language. I'm not trying to correct you - just to clarify some things you've said. I've seen how easily being unclear can lead to confusion on handicaps.

The problem with that is that it's a problem that really has no solution.

Never said differently. Some people can travel with their handicaps better than others. Those that travel well tend to have well-rounded games. Someone who is a good putter may suffer when they play a golf course with smaller greens, someone who's accurate but short may suffer on longer, wider courses (with or without a lot more carries), etc.

I knew the term "bogey golfer" but didn't really know what the actual handicap it was based off of.

It's not really based off a handicap... more a certain skillset: tee shots go 200 yards, second shots go 170 yards, etc. And it's not the index, it's the course handicap (but then again, standard difficulty is 113, so the index would be 20.0 too

).

Source: Definition A male "bogey golfer" is a player who has a Course Handicap of approximately 20 on a course of standard difficulty. He can hit tee shots an average of 200 yards and reach a 370-yard hole in two shots at sea level. (snipped out the female figures)

Any discussion on this is good because there is a huge misconception when it comes to handicaps, course rating, and slope.

Agreed.

One example is how people will compare the slope of two different courses to determine which is more difficult. If my understanding is correct (I'm assuming it is), the slope's only purpose is to determine the gap between the "course rating" and the "bogey rating".

That's true, but a 20 handicapper is going to be more affected by slope than course rating, and a 2-handicapper more by course rating than slope. So, for the majority of golfers, the slope is a good relative indication of difficulty.

If you have a course with a very high course rating but a moderate slope (75.0/125), it could be much more difficult for the average golfer than a course with a loer course rating but a higher slope (71.0/145).

That's not necessarily true. If you play to an 18.0 index, to get a differential of 18 you'd shoot 94 at the 71/145 course and 95 at the 75/125 course. Play to a 22 and they're the same (99). Anything above that - say, 30 (110/108) - and it flips. It flips a lot sooner if the course ratings are closer to each other. Also depends what you mean by "average." Only 67% of golfers

with handicaps have a USGA index of 18 or lower. Again, not trying to be nit-picky, just trying to throw more information out there. In the end, the OP would be well served to read the USGA's online handicapping articles. They're not really difficult to read and in many cases quite enlightening. http://www.usga.org/Handicapping.aspx?id=7792

[msd3075]

You implied that cause and effect were switched. Explaining it backwards doesn't state the same thing. The question is "how do they determine a course rating" and the answer is not "they look at the ten best of 20 scores for scratch golfers."

We really are getting nit-picky here, but........that isn't what I said at all.

To explain how a course rating is established, you first have to understand what it means and the purpose behind it. The statement you keep referring to wasn't meant to describe how the course rating it established but instead the meaning behind it's purpose.

It really wasn't... you've got to be careful with language. You said the "The Bogey Rating is similar to the Course rating but instead calcuates what a "bogey golfer" will shoot on handicap-counting rounds." The bogey rating doesn't "calculate" anything. I agree, it's nit-picky, but with the rules and handicaps and such I think it's important to be nit-picky about the language. I'm not trying to correct you - just to clarify some things you've said. I've seen how easily being unclear can lead to confusion on handicaps.

Fine. Instead of "calculates", use "conveys".

Never said differently. Some people can travel with their handicaps better than others. Those that travel well tend to have well-rounded games. Someone who is a good putter may suffer when they play a golf course with smaller greens, someone who's accurate but short may suffer on longer, wider courses (with or without a lot more carries), etc.

I think it has a lot to do with the particular player's strengths and weaknesses. For me, I play on a long course (7400 yds, par 71), so long par 4's and par 5's don't affect me like they do other players. That being said, the same course has huge greens where there was always a huge "safe spot" you could hit to; other courses don't and affect me pretty bad.

That's true, but a 20 handicapper is going to be more affected by slope than course rating, and a 2-handicapper more by course rating than slope. So, for the majority of golfers, the slope is a good relative indication of difficulty.

That's not necessarily true. If you play to an 18.0 index, to get a differential of 18 you'd shoot 94 at the 71/145 course and 95 at the 75/125 course. Play to a 22 and they're the same (99). Anything above that - say, 30 (110/108) - and it flips. It flips a lot sooner if the course ratings are closer to each other. Also depends what you mean by "average." Only 67% of golfers with handicaps have a USGA index of 18 or lower.

I think in the end we can all agree that there are so many variables that you really can't describe any other this without going into depth.

[golfbarefoot]

Slope = Rise over Run. It's really that simple. Plug in your variables, and it's not magic.

[woodzie264]

113 is the slope of a course with "average difficulty". That's why it's the number used in the calculation of course handicaps.

cool man; thanks for the info

[GolfinGQ]

The most important role of slope is leveling the playing field for players of different skill levels. For example, let's say Player A and Player B average a score of 85 for 18 holes. But Player A's average is established on a very difficult course (say, a slope rating of 145), while Player B's average is established on a very easy course (say, a slope rating of 95). If handicaps were simply estimates of golfers' average scores, then these two players would have the same handicap index. But Player A is clearly the better golfer, and in a match between the two Player B would clearly need some strokes.

Slope rating allows the handicap index to reflect these factors. Because he plays on a course with a higher slope rating, Player A's handicap index will be lower than Player B's (when it is calculated using the slope ratings), despite the fact that they both average scores of 85. So when A and B get together to play, B will get those extra strokes he needs.

[Lihu]

I just recently played two rounds where I pretty much felt that I was playing roughly the same. My driver is new for both rounds and might account for a few strokes from yesterdays round. I was pretty wild off the tee yesterday, but kept things under control and shot exactly what I should have shot.

Yesterday 89 on 72.9/130 with roughly 6800 yards length

Today 81 67.5/117 with roughly 5735 yards length.

The course differential shows that on the first course I should shoot 89, and that's what I shot. Lucky, I guess.

The second course I should be shooting 15 over par, that's 85 and I shot 81.

http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/calculator/calculator_results.asp

What's the reason? I thought the course handicap calculation took all this into account?

I would like to start with the fact that the second course felt so much easier, I suppose swinging easier (because things looked so much closer?) on the drives might have given be better results?

Maybe the course differential does not take the yardage into account and the shorter iron usage on the second course made the chances of me hitting greens better? I look at my shot patterns for my 5i,6i,7i,8i,9i,PW, 52 and 60 and they are significantly better with each shorter club. I would guess that other golfers experience more or less the same thing.

What's the consensus?

Mentally relaxed off the tee for more FW?

Shorter irons are much more accurate, and the slope does not take that into account?

[David in FL]

Some days you play better than other days..... :-) Both days you played a bit better than your handicap......something that tends to happen less than 20% of the time. A differential of 14.0 yesterday, and a very nice 13.0 today. Congratulations! :beer: FWIW, the course handicap is nothing more than the relationship between your handicap index and that of other players, based on the slope of the course that you're playing, so that you can compete with a reasonable degree of equality.

[Lihu]

Some days you play better than other days.....

Both days you played a bit better than your handicap......something that tends to happen less than 20% of the time. A differential of 14.0 yesterday, and a very nice 13.0 today. Congratulations!

FWIW, the course handicap is nothing more than the relationship between your handicap index and that of other players, based on the slope of the course that you're playing, so that you can compete with a reasonable degree of equality.

So, basically both days were more or less lucky? I suppose that's plausible. I didn't feel like I was playing all that great, though. Actually, I was taken aback by the total score and checked if I entered everything correctly, twice.

Your second statement is that course handicap only allows golfers to compete within a "reasonable degree of equity". I feel that the second course is so much easier than the first one. It's way shorter >1000 yards, and everything looked so close. I felt more relaxed about if I "duffed" my tee shot, because I could recover with a 3H or something like that. I'm pretty sure that's how any other golfer at or above my handicap would feel. If I played Scholl Canyon with a 54.8/86 rating, I am not even happy about shooting 4 over, but if I get my butt handed to me at TPC Tampa I feel pretty good just to have survived. So, that's why I am asking.

I feel like the course handicap system does not accurately account for this inequity.

[David in FL]

So, basically both days were more or less lucky? I suppose that's plausible. I didn't feel like I was playing all that great, though. Actually, I was taken aback by the total score and checked if I entered everything correctly, twice. :-$ Your second statement is that course handicap only allows golfers to compete within a "reasonable degree of equity". I feel that the second course is so much easier than the first one. It's way shorter >1000 yards, and everything looked so close. I felt more relaxed about if I "duffed" my tee shot, because I could recover with a 3H or something like that. I'm pretty sure that's how any other golfer at or above my handicap would feel. If I played Scholl Canyon with a 54.8/86 rating, I am not even happy about shooting 4 over, but if I get my butt handed to me at TPC Tampa I feel pretty good just to have survived. So, that's why I am asking. I feel like the course handicap system does not accurately account for this inequity.

Lucky? What's wrong with good ? :-) Your course handicap from yesterday was 17. Today it was 15. Mine would have been 6 and 5 respectively. If you and I had been playing a match each day, you would have received 11 strokes from me yesterday, but only 10 today. That recognizes that even though we're the same golfers on both days, the more difficult course should represent a greater incremental challenge to you than it should to me. Don't confuse a differential from a given round, with your course handicap . They're 2 entirely different things, even though both provide an indication of the relative difficulty of different courses. Note that today, even though you scored 8 strokes better than yesterday, your differential was only a single stroke better. That's a direct reflection of how much easier today's course was than yesterday's.