Male Scratch Golfer on the LPGA Tour

[newtogolf]

Thought wrong - re-read Eriks first post the question he posed was;

"...I've long believed (though not by a big margin) this: a scratch golfer who established his handicap playing on a reasonably good golf course (no wide open munis with flat, slow greens, two bunkers, and rough a half an inch higher than the fairway) could "keep his card" on the LPGA Tour.

Now, that's not to say the guy's gonna win anything. I don't even think his name would show up on any leaderboards. Ever. But I've attended a fair number of LPGA Tour events, and I've played with a fair number of scratch golfers. It seems like most weeks on the LPGA Tour, though the leader might have shot -8 or -10 through two rounds, the cut still comes at +4 or so. I think the average scratch golfer - a well-rounded player who got there on a reasonable course, remember - would make a lot of cuts, finish in the top 50 half the time he did, and keep his LPGA card (I'm assuming that if you make 75% of the cuts you keep your card).

...What do you think? Now, again, I'm not even 70% convinced the scratch golfer could "keep his LPGA card" - but I definitely lean that way at least a little - 60/40 maybe. And again, no way the guy competes with the top 50 or so on the LPGA, but against the gals below that level, well... right now I think he's got a shot"

The question was never would the scratch golfer win on the tour (I agree he can't), the question was could he compete at a level to keep his LPGA card.  Given the original question I believe my data does make the case for a scratch golfer keeping his LPGA card.  I can't believe you're even trying to compare the difficulty of getting on the PGA tour versus the LPGA, some of the players on the LPGA tour are barely full-time golfers, they make most of their money as models.

Originally Posted by wmiller

And how many pga pros can't finish in the top 150, lose their card, can't keep their card from year to year, never make a cut the entire year, etc., etc..? Lots. Your data doesn't prove anything against the original premise. I can make a list just like yours full of bottom feeders on the pga tour. So what. I'm sure there are amateurs that can regularly beat the bottom 20% of the pga tour too.

I think the original question was could a scratch player/amateur  successfully compete on the LPGA tour. In a tournament. Against ALL of them, not just the bottom feeders.

And to me, the word compete means in the hunt for the win, and on more than one occasion. Fat chance of that happening. I seriously doubt the up-and-comers on the mini-tours could do it. Hell, most of them will never get their pga card. They aren't good enough. And many that do, can't keep them.

I've seen LPGA pros place higher than dead last on the men's tour. More than once. They didn't win, but they beat quite a few of the men. On their home turf.

[shades9323]

Nice stats. However, they are kind of irrelevant. None of those players you listed are likely to retain their card, as only the top 80 on the money list keep their cards.
Beating the bottom 20% won't get the scratch player back on the tour the next year.

I also believe that there would be a too much pressure on the male scratch for them to do well making them play even worse.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Nope, I never played golf with an LPGA pro but I watch them often on television and I have played with scratch golfers.  You don't have to play with an LPGA pro to see what iron they use for a given distance and how accurate they are.  There's a number of LPGA pro's that shoot over par at least 85% of the time so while a scratch golfer might not beat the top 20% of the total LPGA field I'd give them fair odds to at least beat the bottom 20%.

ROUNDS UNDER PAR/TOTAL ROUNDS/PERCENTAGE - 2011

Last Updated: Sunday, August 28, 2011

T119

Dori Carter

3

20

0.150

T119

Ashli Bunch

3

20

0.150

T119

Ji Young Oh

3

20

0.150

T119

Yoo Kyeong Kim

3

20

0.150

T123

Jeehae Lee

3

21

0.143

T123

Nicole Castrale

3

21

0.143

T123

Mhairi McKay

2

14

0.143

126

Alison Walshe

3

22

0.136

T127

Eunjung Yi

2

15

0.133

T127

Jean Reynolds

2

15

0.133

T127

Leta Lindley

4

30

0.133

T130

Jaclyn Sweeney

2

16

0.125

T130

Sara Brown

2

16

0.125

T130

Young-A Yang

1

8

0.125

T133

Angela Oh

2

18

0.111

T133

Na On Min

3

27

0.111

T133

Jee Young Lee

3

27

0.111

136

Paola Moreno

2

19

0.105

137

Grace Park

3

29

0.103

138

Jennie Lee

2

20

0.100

139

Laura Diaz

2

23

0.087

140

Maria Hernandez

1

12

0.083

141

Jimin Jeong

1

13

0.077

142

Allison Hanna

1

15

0.067

143

Birdie Kim

1

17

0.059

144

Christine Song

1

19

0.053

145

Jennifer Rosales

1

23

0.043

146

Sherri Steinhauer

1

24

0.042

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Thought wrong - re-read Eriks first post the question he posed was;

"...I've long believed (though not by a big margin) this: a scratch golfer who established his handicap playing on a reasonably good golf course (no wide open munis with flat, slow greens, two bunkers, and rough a half an inch higher than the fairway) could "keep his card" on the LPGA Tour.

Now, that's not to say the guy's gonna win anything. I don't even think his name would show up on any leaderboards. Ever. But I've attended a fair number of LPGA Tour events, and I've played with a fair number of scratch golfers. It seems like most weeks on the LPGA Tour, though the leader might have shot -8 or -10 through two rounds, the cut still comes at +4 or so. I think the average scratch golfer - a well-rounded player who got there on a reasonable course, remember - would make a lot of cuts, finish in the top 50 half the time he did, and keep his LPGA card (I'm assuming that if you make 75% of the cuts you keep your card).

...What do you think? Now, again, I'm not even 70% convinced the scratch golfer could "keep his LPGA card" - but I definitely lean that way at least a little - 60/40 maybe. And again, no way the guy competes with the top 50 or so on the LPGA, but against the gals below that level, well... right now I think he's got a shot"

The question was never would the scratch golfer win on the tour (I agree he can't), the question was could he compete at a level to keep his LPGA card.  Given the original question I believe my data does make the case for a scratch golfer keeping his LPGA card.  I can't believe you're even trying to compare the difficulty of getting on the PGA tour versus the LPGA, some of the players on the LPGA tour are barely full-time golfers, they make most of their money as models.

[wmiller]

Ah. Got the original confused with some of the replies. My bad.

I should leave the mental masturbation to the arm chair quarterbacks and go play more golf I guess.  :)

[powershanker]

As a senior in high school and during the summer afterwards, my handicap hovered around 1.0-1.5.  A few times I even managed to get into the low+ (+.5).  I shot very consistent scores between about 71-75. I never really could "go low" but I didn't shoot too many high scores either.  Never shooting any really low rounds in competition kept me from playing college golf.  I routinely played with a girl who couldn't manage to make it on any of the ladies mini-tours, however, she was a successful college player at an ACC school.   She beat me most of the times that we played, and frequently by 4-5 shots.  We played the same tees (6900ish yards) on a pretty difficult course.  I hit it by her off of the tee routinely by 30 yards, but she still kicked my butt)  I'm pretty sure that your typical scratch player(i was close then) wouldn't stand a chance against an LPGA pro, esp not any of the top players.  The only exception MIGHT be playing with one of the really short hitting LPGA players on a very long golf course.

[neophyte]

There is golf and there is competitive golf.

I believe a lot of scratch men could do quite well in one day, 18 holes money matches against an LPGA player.  But you realize that competing in a four day tournament that you want to win is not the same as competing in a one day match that you want to win.  Most men would be mentally exhausted after two days and their scores would be disasters from there on. It is hard to describe, unless you have been in 4 day competitions where winning was really important to you.  After a week's tournament Bob Jones was said to have lost 10 to 20 pounds.  In my experience if a scratch golfer could put up par scores four days in a row in a tournament he cared about he should be playing in and winning his states's amateur championships.  And the LPGA pros have learned how to pace themself for four days, and most scratch golfers have never experienced running out of gas after two days in a four day tournament.

[BuckeyeNut]

I couldn't read this entire thread.......but....

A scratch golfer man will not survive on the LPGA..............ya' have to be better than that. These women/girls are better than that..............you have to understand that being a scratch golfer doesn't mean sheeeet.  Hell......I'm a 1, and it's not enough to win my club championship.  Get my drift?

[Lihu]

How about the counter argument?

Could the average LPGA player play scratch on the:

1) white (standard) tees?

if, white tees is a yes, then what about

2) blue tees?

Given that the average LPGA pro carries 220 yards and PW is about 107 yards (statistics from Trackman), and putts around 30 per round (average)?

[Bump-n-MI]

Originally Posted by powershanker

As a senior in high school and during the summer afterwards, my handicap hovered around 1.0-1.5.  A few times I even managed to get into the low+ (+.5).  I shot very consistent scores between about 71-75. I never really could "go low" but I didn't shoot too many high scores either.  Never shooting any really low rounds in competition kept me from playing college golf.  I routinely played with a girl who couldn't manage to make it on any of the ladies mini-tours, however, she was a successful college player at an ACC school.   She beat me most of the times that we played, and frequently by 4-5 shots.  We played the same tees (6900ish yards) on a pretty difficult course.  I hit it by her off of the tee routinely by 30 yards, but she still kicked my butt)  I'm pretty sure that your typical scratch player(i was close then) wouldn't stand a chance against an LPGA pro, esp not any of the top players.  The only exception MIGHT be playing with one of the really short hitting LPGA players on a very long golf course.

Not buying that AT ALL!!!!  So you are telling me that “she” shot between 66 and 71 “most of the times” you played against her???  BS…..

So lets break this down shall we. 6900 yds averages out to the following:

170 yd average par 3’s

414 yd average par 4’s

520 yd average par 5’s

I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she averages 250 off the tee and hits a 7 iron 150.  That means she is hitting (on average) 6 iron approaches into every hole (excluding the par 5’s where none of them are reachable).  I’m also assuming her proximity to the hole is somewhere in the 20-25’ range right?  Not buying that for 1 second.

[Slice of Life]

All I can say with 100% certainty, is that the worst player with an LPGA card would beat me every time. :D

[RobCWhatUp]

Originally Posted by Lihu

How about the counter argument?

Could the average LPGA player play scratch on the:

1) white (standard) tees?

if, white tees is a yes, then what about

2) blue tees?

Given that the average LPGA pro carries 220 yards and PW is about 107 yards (statistics from Trackman), and putts around 30 per round (average)?

I didn't get a chance to read the whole thread but this was kind of in line with my question too.  Sorry if this was already answered, but what tees do LPGA players typically play from?  I know they probably don't play from the tips, but I'm guessing they don't play from the typical ladies' tees either.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

I didn't get a chance to read the whole thread but this was kind of in line with my question too.  Sorry if this was already answered, but what tees do LPGA players typically play from?  I know they probably don't play from the tips, but I'm guessing they don't play from the typical ladies' tees either.

They play at about 6600 yards. I would bet those would be a back set of tees from most average courses. Not all courses have a set of tips that play 7000+.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

They play at about 6600 yards. I would bet those would be a back set of tees from most average courses. Not all courses have a set of tips that play 7000+.

I think most can get to 6700 or 6800 though. I don't think it's the back tees at most courses.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

I think most can get to 6700 or 6800 though. I don't think it's the back tees at most courses.

According to golf digest, the average length of the courses played on the LPGA tour last year was about 6550. That is where I pulled that 6600 figure from. Most of the courses in this area play about 6200 from the whites and about 6600 from the back tees. That's why I said that. There are some courses with a 5th set of tees set further back that play 6900-7100, but it's not too common. If you don't mind me asking, what are the back tees at most courses in your opinion?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

If you don't mind me asking, what are the back tees at most courses in your opinion?

Average? 6750.

That's just a guess off the top of my mind. The courses I can name that I've played regularly are all longer than that (often longer with the next-to-back tees), but I don't play many of the shorter courses around here, either.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Ok. 6750 sounds reasonable. That's about 200 yards longer than what the LPGA average was last year. And only by about 10 yards per hole.

[Moppy]

Chris Evert used to say that when she was at the top of her game in tennis, her brother, who was an unranked amateur, would regularly beat her. That being said, I am taking lessons from a woman who played on the LPGA tour, and she can really drive the ball when she wants to and I have nothing but respect for her. Her tip on how to reduce my slice had me committing to the swing with *more* gusto, not  less, and it worked, btw. She just will never have the frame and musculature to compete with excellent men players. So what? Ladies golf is still fun to watch.

Another fact I thought was interesting was that there is much more correlation between being a long hitter and a low score in women's golf than men's. This makes me think that the comparatively few long hitters are the real athletes and they are the gals you should be putting your male scratch golfer up against.

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

Ok. 6750 sounds reasonable. That's about 200 yards longer than what the LPGA average was last year. And only by about 10 yards per hole.

So, does this mean that the HP that the average LPGA tour player is something like 2 strokes (guessing 2 extra pitch shots?) more than a male scratch golfer? This is also assuming that the average LPGA course is setup such that the average player can par it, is this also correct?

I did not figure the putts per round for the male scratch golfer would be that much different than an LPGA who putts 30, is this also more or less correct?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Moppy

Another fact I thought was interesting was that there is much more correlation between being a long hitter and a low score in women's golf than men's. This makes me think that the comparatively few long hitters are the real athletes and they are the gals you should be putting your male scratch golfer up against.

That's not really the way it works though. If a guy played on the LPGA Tour he'd be playing against all of the women, not just the longest. And a true scratch golfer is probably going to be top ten in driving distance anyway.