The Biggest Secret? Slide Your Hips

[NuclearMike]

Worked on it yesterday at the range and it worked for me when I did it right.  Lots more work to do, though, to ingrain it into my swing.  Another swing thought means that I have to trust that some of those other swing thoughts that I've been working on have become part of my muscle memory.  Too much information just screws with my swing, but this is probably the best move that I've tried.  Paralysis by analysis...

[Audaxi]

The hip slide to me is easier to feel if I think of it as a weight transfer and moving through the ball. Not sure if this is accurate, but that's how it feels to me, and it might help anyone that struggles with this.

[Fearlessgolfer]

Erik, great post!

You now have acquired in depth information on several patterns and teach them.

Since evolving with this new information, have your thoughts change about this OP?

[ChrisGSZ]

The 'trick' might be to simply think of keeping the hips 'quiet' during the downswing and then 'square at impact'. The reasons for this are:

1. The downswing is undobtedly a rotational action and the hips certainly have to rotate. But it's a 'quiet' rotation because it's towards the beginning of the kinetic chain. The role of the hips is to transfer energy from the initial push against the ground into body rotation. The key hip action is actually to decelerate in order to do pass the energy on. So thinking of 'turning the hips' can easily cause the hips to work 'too hard' and destroy the timing in the kinetic chain.

2. Thinking of sliding the hips will probably prevent excess hip action because it takes the focus away from rotation.

But a 'hip slide' runs the risk of excess weight shift etc., so I feel focussing on 'quietly rotating' the hips has the same effect without the risks. And then a focus on 'square at impact' encourages the deceleration.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by ChrisGSZ

The 'trick' might be to simply think of keeping the hips 'quiet' during the downswing and then 'square at impact'.

I disagree. Virtually everyone we've taught under-slides their hips. The hips aren't quiet - they slide laterally in the downswing.

Originally Posted by ChrisGSZ

1. The downswing is undobtedly a rotational action and the hips certainly have to rotate. But it's a 'quiet' rotation because it's towards the beginning of the kinetic chain. The role of the hips is to transfer energy from the initial push against the ground into body rotation. The key hip action is actually to decelerate in order to do pass the energy on. So thinking of 'turning the hips' can easily cause the hips to work 'too hard' and destroy the timing in the kinetic chain.

The downswing is both rotational and linear. It is not purely rotational.

Originally Posted by ChrisGSZ

But a 'hip slide' runs the risk of excess weight shift etc., so I feel focussing on 'quietly rotating' the hips has the same effect without the risks. And then a focus on 'square at impact' encourages the deceleration.

We've yet to see any students who move their hips too far forward. Not one. The average PGA Tour player has 85-95% of his pressure forward at impact, and over 75% of his weight. The average amateur is well behind that.

I do not think you've read this thread, Chris. It feels as if you've just popped in because it showed up for you because someone just bumped it, and so without reading you skimmed and posted your pre-conceived thoughts.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by iacas

The downswing is both rotational and linear. It is not purely rotational.

We've yet to see any students who move their hips too far forward. Not one. The average PGA Tour player has 85-95% of his pressure forward at impact, and over 75% of his weight. The average amateur is well behind that.

Its a halfturn to a point. Or else you defy human evolution and anatomy.

tests with golf pro´s show weight is in right foot at impact and split after on the left side.

Indicating a transfer in process.

Cant slide hips they are not made to slide.

wrong terminology if you ask me.

to meet the slide criteria the pelvis needs to do a halfturn to create the diagonal angle needed.

Or else there is no slide possible.

[saevel25]

Anatomically the hips are not sliding, meaning they are moving out of there ball and socket joints. But if you look at a face on view, the hips at address, versus the hips at impact. There is a lateral shift in position. This can be described as a slide. A better term would be Shift, than slide, but nit picking doesn't keep the fact that the hips are further towards the target at impact then they are at address, hence a shift.

[mvmac]

I think the use of "slide" can be helpful to create the correct image for students.  The transfer is happening because the golfer is adding pressure into the ground with the lead foot.  Then they can come out of flexion and keep turning.  If you just "turn" on the downswing, the path is going to be across the ball and you're not going to have any leverage.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by soon_tourpro

Its a halfturn to a point. Or else you defy human evolution and anatomy.

tests with golf pro´s show weight is in right foot at impact and split after on the left side.

Indicating a transfer in process.

The bold part is incorrect. We've done the measurements, seen the studies, etc. And at no point have I ever said there's no transfer; I don't know where that came from.

Originally Posted by soon_tourpro

Cant slide hips they are not made to slide.

wrong terminology if you ask me.

Well, I disagree, and your hips can absolutely "slide" the way we've defined it (and it's not like we've defined it weirdly).

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by mvmac

I think the use of "slide" can be helpful to create the correct image for students.  The transfer is happening because the golfer is adding pressure into the ground with the lead foot.  Then they can come out of flexion and keep turning.  If you just "turn" on the downswing, the path is going to be across the ball and you're not going to have any leverage.

slide=kinetic chain done right.

wont help a golfer if they dont do the kinetic chain properly and then think slide, teaching them hands on is different than offer a suggestion trough video or a forum.

Foot position affect how the hip and pelvis moves also.
Hips dont equal pelvis. For me its not semantics due to hip dont moe that way the pelvis does.

What is wanted is to move the kinetic chain in order of sequence and no hip slide will ever do that.

Moving the right knee to fix the spinning out might help but if the footplacement isnt properly it wont help much.

Moving the body in a proper kinetic chain then all those things happens, the pelvis opens up in a angle as its designed by evolution in the sit down move noted Sam Snead did.
The chain happens when the foot placement support it and when your on plane.
Normal golf instruction goes against how the body been moving trough evolution.
Making it really complicated to do something really simple.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by iacas

The bold part is incorrect. We've done the measurements, seen the studies, etc. And at no point have I ever said there's no transfer; I don't know where that came from.

Well, I disagree, and your hips can absolutely "slide" the way we've defined it (and it's not like we've defined it weirdly).

You disagree with how Greg Norman did swing then?
"65% of The Shark's weight is STILL on his right side with the club head 12 inches from the impact position. "
http://bradleyhughesgolf.com/Page_7.html
sliding people wont have that ratio due to them will move to early on their left side and since they dont understand how their body should move will struggle with its instruction.

Hip is attached femur head, wont move much as your describing how the pelvis moves with the side of the body moving to position to support the weightshift a transfer in progress.(kinda need to understand that if you want people to slide their hips properly)
Your images all post the left side moves left and a Golf Pro will allow the pelvis to open in an angle naturally aka half-turn that happens due to moving the kinectic chain in order to be on plane.
since an amateur is badly instructed and never learned how to do a kinetic chain sequence from their local pro it wont help them to move the right knee unless they also have a proper foot position with left foot for a righty and understand how their upper body should move in unison with it. All that will happen when the golfer understands how to be on plane.

I agree you didnt describe it wierdly, just in a way that complicates things.

;)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by soon_tourpro

slide=kinetic chain done right.

wont help a golfer if they dont do the kinetic chain properly and then think slide, teaching them hands on is different than offer a suggestion trough video or a forum.

And yet this thread has helped more people - perhaps because they've taken more time to understand what's being said than you have - than I imagine you have.

Too many golfers simply rotate. They lack the linear component. We describe it as sliding "forward on a circle" sometimes, but some golfers need to feel they slide their hips to first base (less rotation), some to third base (more rotation), and some just need to get it forward more.

Originally Posted by soon_tourpro

You disagree with how Greg Norman did swing then?

"65% of The Shark's weight is STILL on his right side with the club head 12 inches from the impact position."

Those are inherently flawed. Scales take time for the pointer or dial to move to the position they're measuring, and they take a lot longer than the move from A5 to A6.5. His impact measurement is more likely to be his A5.5 measurement. The same paragraph also gets the "holding the flex" wrong. The shaft is actually in lead deflection coming into impact.

The world has advanced from using analog SCALES with a physical dial. We can get near-instant measurements, and they show 85-95% pressure forward at impact with a mid-iron, and well over 50% with a driver (a bigger range exists for drivers because some players hang back and hit up a little, others go forward and hit down, and some do the opposite of each, but because the ball is in the air, you don't need 85-95% forward - our numbers range from 60 to 90% with the average being about 75% pressure forward).

Originally Posted by soon_tourpro

sliding people wont have that ratio due to them will move to early on their left side and since they dont understand how their body should move will struggle with its instruction.

I disagree with "move too early." You haven't read this thread. We care more about how LONG someone is able to move forward than how MUCH they can move forward. There are lots of sucky golfers who move forward too much, too early, and then fall back through the hit.

I'm not sure where you believe we're teaching an improper kinetic sequence. Sliding the hips (rather than rotating them only) improves a golfer's kinetic sequence when that's what they need to work on. Sliding slows down the rotational component and allows the hips to fire at the proper time, rather than immediately from the top.

And we aren't relying on 1980s tech to show us these things, either. :P

[saevel25]

The kinetic chain is Hips, Torso, arms, clubhead.

If you straigthen your left leg to early, you abruptly stop the lower part of the kinetic chain, this will subsequently effect the rest of the chain. Which means, if you stop the hips early, but not keeping them sliding, and keeping rotating, then you will stop the torso earlier, which stops the arms earlier, which then will cause the person to cast the club, because the wrist are not able to hold that force and there timing it totally off. If you keep the left knee a bit more flexed into impact, have a slide of the hips, you allow for the maximum energy transfer from the hips to the clubhead, and allow time for the arms to get ahead of the ball before the clubhead, allowing for maximum power and velocity.

To many times have i seen amatuers think they need to straighten that front knee, or not maintain proper knee flex through impact, and all it does is totally kill rotation and arm movement.

[jd924]

Ok so I am having this slight problem. I KNOW sliding the hips is the correct thing to do. I've been doing it for quite some time and have had minimal success with this "feel". Please take note my swing with Evolvr guys has "evolved" nicely to where I'm pretty happy with where it is at in the sense Im good at A2, A3, A4, A5, and A6. My problem has been incorrect sequencing from A2 all the way to A6 where I had the club outside the hands at A6. Finally have that nailed down to where I can get it perfectly without thinking much about it. So here's my "problem". I played today for the first time where I felt comfortable knowing I was hitting A1-A6 correctly. However I was hitting some pushes so I tried this feel of turning my hips rather than sliding them. This I believed gave me the effect of having my hips more open at impact with the shoulders squared that stopped the "omg wtf was that" push shot I got sometimes today. Looked at my swing again after my round and my A1-A7 still looks good. Could my hips not have been open enough resulting in push shots? In my case should I feel like I turn instead of slide? Help please :) Sorry for the long wall of text.

[saevel25]

If your hitting a big push, if its a push, and not an alignment issue. Then strengthen the grip a bit, or close the clubhead a few degrees.

You never want to hit a straight ball, its impossible to do and leads to inconsistancy. Imagine you try to hit a straight ball, now you have to have zero face angle to clubhead path at impact. That clubhead path needs to be zero to your alignment. So that's two zero's, you need. If you keep the clubface slightly open your going to hit it right, or slighly closed, your going left. That is to much variable. If you hit a push draw, even if you leave the clubface slightly more open, you will just hit a slightly less draw or a push, and if its slightly more closed then you'll hit a bit more draw, but your knowing its going to go to the left a lot more than if you try to hit a straight ball.

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by saevel25

To many times have i seen amatuers think they need to straighten that front knee, or not maintain proper knee flex through impact, and all it does is totally kill rotation and arm movement.

This is why I parted ways with my previous instructor. He was preachy about the straight leg thing even when the video showed that it slowed or even stopped my rotation prematurely. Which was strange because he also claimed I wasn't getting enough knee flex in the backswing. The more knee flex I had going back the tougher is became to straighten out like he wanted me to. After 3 lessons I could see he had me scooping at the ball.

[sofingaw]

Originally Posted by saevel25

If your hitting a big push, if its a push, and not an alignment issue. Then strengthen the grip a bit, or close the clubhead a few degrees.

You never want to hit a straight ball, its impossible to do and leads to inconsistancy. Imagine you try to hit a straight ball, now you have to have zero face angle to clubhead path at impact. That clubhead path needs to be zero to your alignment. So that's two zero's, you need. If you keep the clubface slightly open your going to hit it right, or slighly closed, your going left. That is to much variable. If you hit a push draw, even if you leave the clubface slightly more open, you will just hit a slightly less draw or a push, and if its slightly more closed then you'll hit a bit more draw, but your knowing its going to go to the left a lot more than if you try to hit a straight ball.

I'm not a scientist, or a good golfer. But wouldn't your shot cone be exactly the same width no matter which type of shot you try to hit? i.e, which way you attempt to aim the cone?

Wouldn't it just be the choice between left, straight or right?

I get that on an errant shot, you would be either left or right of target line, and therefore the target, in the straight shot cone, and your preference for knowing what side you could expect to be on,  but wouldn't an equally errant shot relative to the target line within a drawn or faded shot cone be either a bit closer to the target(Good outcome), or even further from the target(Bad outcome) potentially?

Know what I mean? If the pin is directly in front of you, and you always play a fade, you will either hit it at the pin, right of the pin, or right- er of the pin.

However, If you played the same shot with a straight cone centered on the pin, wouldn't you be closer to the pin on either errant shot, though without being able to predict which side you would be on, pre-shot?

Is it perhaps a matter of preference to go as straight as possible, vice playing a fade or draw consistently? I particularly mean this for higher handicappers like myself, who have not got on to shot shaping just yet. However, If I improve, and still tend to hit straight, can I keep doing so with a reasonable expectation of success, if I can repeat swings?

Just spitballing here, but interesting!

[saevel25]

The problem is, when is the pin straight infront of you. What if the pin is sitting in the back right of the green, and going right is short siding your self. You have your shot cone, you aim at the flag, but you happen to be slightly open, you hit the side of the green and it bounces into a bunker or into the water. You know you hit a push fade, you aim for the center of the green, you know if your slighly open you will end up nearer to the pin. If you hit your normal fade you end up 10-15 feet left of the pin, if you hit it straight you end up middle of the green.

this problem become much more troublesome with any sort of wind. You want to hit it straight, but you draw it with the wind, your going to end up way left and over the green. You end up fading into the wind on accident, you end up short of the green. What if you want to go for a pin location that is tight. You can't because with all the variables in the shot, you need to hit it one way or another, because hitting it with a left shot direction means certain death. Its better to always error on one side or the other, because its one less variable you have to play for.