The Biggest Secret? Slide Your Hips

[32quattro]

  mvmac said:

Good players slide their hips forward as they rotate. This is 101 stuff and not really up for debate, it's been confirmed by 3D measurements of many tour players.

Yes, correct 101. Top of transition , squat, pressure on right leg, left knee ER and hips turning. That's the same I have been saying. And 5KS  said the same

Quote:

Key #2 Weight Forward

Our pressure plate data (verified several times over) actually shows that the key here is to have the weight predominantly forward at impact. The weight is mostly centered throughout the backswing and start down, and pressure in the top players will even tend to be back, particularly during transition. There is a constant, slowish, transfer of that weight/pressure during the downswing. We are not saying weight forward throughout and believe this would be a mistake for many players."

[timbamania]

  32quattro said:

If you paid attention I said

"I never said there's no slide. I know that better players externally rotate the front left knee while turning the left butt side backwards. There is not a deliberate slide/bump left of the hips as in the video. But we keep our different ideas and I just showed you several examples of it. I stay with the Sam Snead bandwagon, on applying pressure on the right foot on early transition (squatting/sitting) while externally rotating the left knee and moving backwards the left side. It is a totally different move allowing to generate a more powerfull momentum. To do so you need a firm left side (left foot braking inside the shoes) that is the opposite of what you are showing in the video frame I posted."

It's actually good to discuss this, if you can actually present your arguments. But first, please make up your mind. Earlier you said this:

  32quattro said:

Originally Posted by 32quattro

Now, back to business: I still keep my ideas as per previous posts. No hips slide just hips turn. Best ball strikers squat at the beginning of transition and don't slide.

So what is it, slide or no slide?

  32quattro said:

Q. : Has Jimmy moved forward or just rotated around his left hip ? or Does it appears that Jimmy is moving forward of the green line while rotating ?

It is not important if the doll is rotating on the left hip,middle,or right side, around his head or whatever. The point is from a particular camera angle a rotating object can appear moving forward if a green line is crossing it ( as Sam Snead portion of the body left and right of the green line )

The problem with your examples of the slide 'illusion' is that it is based on a formal logical fallacy, affirming the consequent :

1. If P , then Q .
2. Q .
3. Therefore, P .

In your example:

1. If Chuckie/Jimmy turns around his axis , then Chuckies hips appear to move forward .
2. Chuckies hips appear to move forward .
3. Therefore, Chuckie/Jimmy turns around his axis .

This is incorrect reasoning. If you do not understand why, check the wiki page I linked here . You have not proven an illusion.

[32quattro]

  timbamania said:

It's actually good to discuss this, if you can actually present your arguments. But first, please make up your mind. Earlier you said this:

So what is it, slide or no slide?

The problem with your examples of the slide 'illusion' is that it is based on a formal logical fallacy, affirming the consequent:

If P, then Q.

Q.

Therefore, P.

In your example:

If Chuckie/Jimmy turns around his axis, then Chuckies hips appear to move forward.

Chuckies hips appear to move forward.

Therefore, Chuckie/Jimmy turns around his axis.

This is incorrect reasoning. If you do not understand why, check the wiki page I linked here. You have not proven an illusion.

Sorry but your wiki reference (just clicked) is showing me nothing but the same answer you gave me. Sam Snead is left of the green line , than is right of the green line. I say 'maybe' is rotating only. Isacs says ' he must have moved forward'

So the examples. It s no difficult to understand, its it ?

Make your mind. slide no slide. I gave plenty. The hips are moving forward but not because the golfer deliberately is sliding. It is a consequence of other moves (like left knee externally rotating left). The first move is not sliding the hips left/forward. Several top players are doing this and I am happy for them. The best move , no way.

[timbamania]

  32quattro said:

Sorry but your wiki reference (just clicked) is showing me nothing but the same answer you gave me. Sam Snead is left of the green line , than is right of the green line. I say 'maybe' is rotating only. Isacs says ' he must have moved forward'

So the examples. It s no difficult to understand, its it ?

Make your mind. slide no slide. I gave plenty. The hips are moving forward but not because the golfer deliberately is sliding. It is a consequence of other moves (like left knee externally rotating left). The first move is not sliding the hips left/forward. Several top players are doing this and I am happy for them. The best move , no way.

Ok, so you agree that there is a slide (which makes your 'illusion' example moot because it tried to prove that there was no slide).

Now the remaining question is: is the slide only a consequence of turning - as you claim - or is it the slide that is causing things to happen in the downswing?

My take on this: if it would be a pure turn, your weight would not move towards the target unless you moved your upper body forward and/or swung out your shoulders (coming over the top). In a real swing, something else happens: the left knee moves towards the target, on top of your left foot. It is physically impossible to do that without sliding your hips (unless you make a really funky movement). So if you transfer your weight to the left side during downing, you will inevitably slide your hips. And, conversely, if you slide your hips correctly, you will transfer your weight to the left side.

[saevel25]

  32quattro said:

Thanks for your video of Adam Scott. Great guy, great player.

I answer your questions:

1.Yes.Yes.

2. It is more complicated than just watching a front view video to define if he actively forward slide from the hips.

No it isn't.

You can physically see what is happening. We are not asking what the player "feels" like he is doing. We are showing what, "actually" is happening in the swing.

In response to your to the roulette wheel. It would be accurate if the roulette wheel itself shifted laterally.

  32quattro said:

If you paid attention I said

"I never said there's no slide. I know that better players externally rotate the front left knee while turning the left butt side backwards. There is not a deliberate slide/bump left of the hips as in the video. But we keep our different ideas and I just showed you several examples of it. I stay with the Sam Snead bandwagon, on applying pressure on the right foot on early transition (squatting/sitting) while externally rotating the left knee and moving backwards the left side. It is a totally different move allowing to generate a more powerfull momentum. To do so you need a firm left side (left foot braking inside the shoes) that is the opposite of what you are showing in the video frame I posted."

You'd still be wrong.

Left knee does rotate, and does shift laterally as does the hip. The knee has to move because the hips are moving and they are connected together through muscle and ligaments.

Again Adam Scott. I threw in your left knee on this one, the orange dot. The left knee moves down and to the right. In the first part of the transition it stays pretty much the same vertically but shifts laterally to the left. Then the knee gains extension and moves up and slightly left. It basically pivots around the left foot.

The left hip does the same. It moves down and to the right as stated before, as stated before down and around the spine. Then the hips move nearly laterally to the left, "SLIDE". Both the left knee and left hip slide laterally. You can not deny it doesn't.

If your statement is true, then at impact then the outside of his pants should match up with the green line as it did at address, not be shifted a good 2-3 inches laterally.

Look at where the final dot of his hip joint finished up at. About 2-3 inches laterally moved.

The slide happens, not matter how much you think otherwise, including torturing dolls.

[Lihu]

I've been reading all the posts, and wondered if this sliding "action" happens automatically when you initiate the swing from the legs and hips? It feels this way when I "feel" like the swing is optimal. I was observing this doing my mirror work with the swing fan.

Seems like no extra work is required to make this action? Is this true or have I just started to ingrain enough of Key 2 that it kind of feels natural?

[Vinsk]

Well, we've given visual proof in a real life video, Iacas, a golf pro who's researched the golf swing relentlessly and teaches daily for a living and has 3D data to back his comments along with many many other teaching professionals ....and Quattro32 hung a dummy by a rope. I think we're done here.

[mvmac]

  32quattro said:

Yes, correct 101. Top of transition , squat, pressure on right leg, left knee ER and hips turning. That's the same I have been saying. And 5KS  said the same

Quote:

Key #2 Weight Forward

Our pressure plate data (verified several times over) actually shows that the key here is to have the weight predominantly forward at impact. The weight is mostly centered throughout the backswing and start down, and pressure in the top players will even tend to be back, particularly during transition. There is a constant, slowish, transfer of that weight/pressure during the downswing. We are not saying weight forward throughout and believe this would be a mistake for many players."

And just because the pressure "settles" under the right foot during transition, it doesn't mean the hips aren't sliding.

Again this is what is going on with the left hip socket, right hip socket, and center of the hip girdle for good players during the swing. This isn't our opinion, this is just what's happening.

[HawkNballs]

Am I the only one concerned that this doll is smoking cigarettes?

[Vinsk]

[quote=32quattro]Sorry but your wiki reference (just clicked) is showing me nothing but the same answer you gave me. Sam Snead is left of the green line , than is right of the green line. I say 'maybe' is rotating only. Isacs says ' he must have moved forward' So the examples. It s no difficult to understand, its it ? Make your mind. slide no slide. I gave plenty. The hips are moving forward but not because the golfer deliberately is sliding. It is a consequence of other moves (like left knee externally rotating left). The first move is not sliding the hips left/forward. Several top players are doing this and I am happy for them. The best move , no way. [/quote] Gosh 32Quattro....you couldn't be more wrong. "Several top players do this?" Come on man....are you joking? I mean you can't honestly believe that if we took a straight on view of other tour players ,like the view of Adam, that their pelvis will not have moved forward on the downswing. You have it backwards....maybe a few players don't ...not top players at all...but the vast majority do. You are 100% wrong.

[chspeed]

  32quattro said:

There is not a deliberate slide/bump left of the hips as in the video.

Is it the word 'deliberately' that's bothering you?

If so, it doesn't matter if the slide/bump (whatever you want to call it) is deliberate or not. The point is that it happens in all very good golf swings. As aspiring golfers, what we should be concerned about are the key things that have to happen to make a good, consistent golf swing. If someone can get the hip slide without trying, that's excellent. Others may need to force it for a while until it becomes ingrained into their swings.

As long as we can all agree that it happens, I think this argument is over.

How about we move on to greener pastures? ;)

[iacas]

  32quattro said:

Originally Posted by 32quattro

Now, back to business: I still keep my ideas as per previous posts. No hips slide just hips turn. Best ball strikers squat at the beginning of transition and don't slide.

And as I've now said a few times, this is incorrect.

Look at the Snead photo. Mark his left hip in both locations. Yeah, it's 3D compressed down to 2D, but we only care about whether he's moving left to right in that photo, so 2D is all we need (heck, 1D would be all we'd need, really, if we knew the location of his left hip joint on a horizontal axis).

His left hip joint clearly moves forward (toward target). As does his right hip joint. As does the center of his pelvis.

  32quattro said:

Originally Posted by 32quattro

I remind you that I quoted several publications to you and a related diagram representing the seconds (time). In those few lines were indicated the clubs used as well and you had all the tools to do your research if interested.

But I got  answers from you as :"The chart presents more questions than it answers. Chief among those are "what is a "slow" or a "fast" weight transfer?" Which golfers were used in this study? What clubs were they hitting?

Did you read it or not ? If yes, why did you ask me which clubs.Is the World Scientific Congress  of Golf a bunch of nobodies writing old myths as me ?

I was on vacation and teaching. Did I read everything you linked to? No. Do I feel I need to at this point, having seen the volume of information I've seen? No. If you were able to actually provide a cogent summary of one of them, I'd be happy to look at the specifics, but you've not done so.

Additionally, the chart seems to have little to do with the topic of this thread. This thread is, again, not about "weight transfer."

  32quattro said:

Originally Posted by 32quattro

Sam Snead pictures

Hips forward or rotating ?

Welcome to my modest garage.I first  tried to place my camera with a similar angle view as the pictures of Sam Snead with the green line above. So slightly forward (30 degrees). Than I made the hips with a piece of wood and inserted a drill bit in the left hip side.The drill itself is mounted on a vice. Clearly the vice and the drill  can not move forwardl

I'm cutting you off here. The creepy doll photos do not in any way accurately represent the human anatomy and what occurs during the golf swing. If you believe that they do, we really have little more to discuss.

Furthermore, if golfers truly rotated around their left hip, their right hip would get significantly closer to the golf ball during the downswing than it was at setup. This does not occur in high level players.

  32quattro said:

Originally Posted by 32quattro

I spent 10 minutes to prepare all of this and I agree with you that is not a modern way to explain tv angle views. I looked on the net for cad 4d animation but I couldn't find anyone I really liked.

I'm sorry for the ten minutes you wasted on this.

  32quattro said:

Originally Posted by 32quattro

The closest one was a 4d roulette project : a camera vision slightly forward.

Pick a number (like black 33). Has moved forward or just rotated ?

This illustration is not at all representative of what we're discussing. The center of the wheel rotates. Everything around it rotates and moves either forward, back, or for a brief moment, entirely toward or away from the camera.

But that's irrelevant. You've said the golfer rotates around the left hip, which would make it the spindle in the roulette wheel, not the #33. Instead, what we see in the golf swing is the roulette wheel (though a golfer's pelvis is not round) both rotating and sliding forward. The forward direction even shifts a little - it's toward the right a bit at first, then straight toward the target briefly, and then left (but still toward the target). This is true of the CENTER of the pelvis, as the true point of rotation is not the left hip. It's just not. We'd see the right hip MUCH closer to the ball at impact (when the hips are open) than we do at setup, and we'd see the left hip in the same place.

The red dot represents the locations of the left hip, right hip, and center of the pelvis at setup. It's basically the same spot so it's just one dot. At impact, the left hip has moved left in this view, which means it is not rotating around it. The right hip has moved right. The center of rotation is very close to the center of the pelvis, NOT the left hip itself.

  32quattro said:

Originally Posted by 32quattro

If anyone can prove me wrong on these subject let me know.

I think people have done so and you just move the goal posts, arguing about whether you said pros slide or don't (you've said both), whether this is "deliberate" or not (who cares?), etc.

  32quattro said:

Take your time. I don't need an answer in depth.I need just your answer at the specific question I made if you don't mind.

I've yet to see any specific questions. I have given you specific answers, but you come back with photos of dolls that are not anatomically accurate.

  32quattro said:

I already prepared  my answers to you including the oval graphic ( 20 + pictures and golf videos footage) but then I  thought that if we don't start from a common ground (as prospective/camera angle) again is not worth it the effort.

The camera angle is relatively unimportant. Any video shot from reasonably "face on" will display the right hip, center of pelvis, and left hip moving forward (toward the target) on the downswing. 2D is actually quite good for that.

  32quattro said:

Referring to the specific Sam Snead pictures where you draw a line you said: :"Please understand that you can't just "say" things you think are true. Please consider where Snead's left hip is in both photos here.It's left of the thick line in the left photo, and right of it in the right photo. Forward.

Snead has moved his left hip from behind the line to forward of the line. If he were simply rotating around his left hip, as you believe your creepy doll is, his hip would stay in the same place, just as your drill bit does.

  32quattro said:

It is not important if the doll is rotating on the left hip,middle,or right side, around his head or whatever. The point is from a particular camera angle a rotating object can appear moving forward if a green line is crossing it ( as Sam Snead portion of the body left and right of the green line )

That's not what's happening in the Snead video. His hips move forward. Look at what I might call the "centers" here - the Lower Rotational Center in the hips and the Upper Rotational Center in the torso. Despite Snead's head staying in about the same place, and thus his URC staying in about the same place, his LRC has moved quite a bit forward. So too has his left hip and right hip.

  32quattro said:

2. It is more complicated than just watching a front view video to define if he actively forward slide from the hips.

You are not paying attention but just cutting short to conclusion. Luke Donald and other very good players on Tour  do slide forward in purpose and then turn. Never said doesn't happen.

Is it the only way ? I don't think so. Is it the best way ? I don't think so. 90% of Tour players are  actively sliding forward the hips ? I don't think so.

Now you're just shifting goalposts again. You're playing word games. Now we are to try to determine what players are "actively" doing? Sorry, I'm not playing along. I care what players are doing, not what they "think" they're doing, or whatever other definition of "deliberate" or "active" you wish to foist on us in the middle of the conversation.

Pros virtually all slide their hips forward quite a bit during the downswing with an iron. A bit less so with driver, but it's usually still there.

  32quattro said:

"I never said there's no slide. I know that better players externally rotate the front left knee while turning the left butt side backwards. There is not a deliberate slide/bump left of the hips as in the video. But we keep our different ideas and I just showed you several examples of it.

You really did no such thing.

  32quattro said:

Then @iacas marked a line on Sam Snead and I am stuck there. There's no way around . First we define that picture than we can carry on.

You seem to be unable to get past the photo. Snead's left hip is left of the line, and then right of the line. He's not rotating around it.

Were Snead rotating around the left hip, the position of his left hip would not change regardless of the camera angle . You could film your drill bit from any angle around the horizontal axis, and the tip of it would appear in the same place regardless.

The Snead video is also pretty close to squarely face-on.

  32quattro said:

Key #2 Weight Forward

Our pressure plate data (verified several times over) actually shows that the key here is to have the weight predominantly forward at impact. The weight is mostly centered throughout the backswing and start down, and pressure in the top players will even tend to be back, particularly during transition. There is a constant, slowish, transfer of that weight/pressure during the downswing. We are not saying weight forward throughout and believe this would be a mistake for many players."

If the hips did not slide forward, and the head remained relatively still, it would be awfully difficult to get your weight forward, don't you think?

This discussion is going nowhere fast.

[mvmac]

@32quattro , you seem to be passionate about golf, I encourage you to check some of our other great threads on the site.

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/newposts

[32quattro]

  timbamania said:

Ok, so you agree that there is a slide (which makes your 'illusion' example moot because it tried to prove that there was no slide).

Now the remaining question is: is the slide only a consequence of turning - as you claim - or is it the slide that is causing things to happen in the downswing?

My take on this: if it would be a pure turn, your weight would not move towards the target unless you moved your upper body forward and/or swung out your shoulders (coming over the top). In a real swing, something else happens: the left knee moves towards the target, on top of your left foot. It is physically impossible to do that without sliding your hips (unless you make a really funky movement). So if you transfer your weight to the left side during downing, you will inevitably slide your hips. And, conversely, if you slide your hips correctly, you will transfer your weight to the left side.

Again, is not a slide, the hips move forward as a consequence of other components in the swing, I just replied to you one line up. Sorry to insist but don't change my words. The "illusion" so to speak, never tried to prove there was not a forward movement of the hips but just that an object can be seen in a different position (right of a line for example) with a simple rotation (reason for a vice and a toy)

[32quattro]

  saevel25 said:

No it isn't.

You can physically see what is happening. We are not asking what the player "feels" like he is doing. We are showing what, "actually" is happening in the swing.

In response to your to the roulette wheel. It would be accurate if the roulette wheel itself shifted laterally.

You'd still be wrong.

Left knee does rotate, and does shift laterally as does the hip. The knee has to move because the hips are moving and they are connected together through muscle and ligaments.

Again Adam Scott. I threw in your left knee on this one, the orange dot. The left knee moves down and to the right. In the first part of the transition it stays pretty much the same vertically but shifts laterally to the left. Then the knee gains extension and moves up and slightly left. It basically pivots around the left foot.

The left hip does the same. It moves down and to the right as stated before, as stated before down and around the spine. Then the hips move nearly laterally to the left, "SLIDE". Both the left knee and left hip slide laterally. You can not deny it doesn't.

If your statement is true, then at impact then the outside of his pants should match up with the green line as it did at address, not be shifted a good 2-3 inches laterally.

Look at where the final dot of his hip joint finished up at. About 2-3 inches laterally moved.

The slide happens, not matter how much you think otherwise, including torturing dolls.

Roulette. The idea was showing something that doesn't move forward (vice/roulette) and have a rotating motion included. I know Sam Snead hips are ahead when on his left foot. I wasn't clear on that but no worries, it is not a big deal

Adam Scott. The left knee move left and we agree. He is not turning more  with his buttock because he doesn't need in this picture, he has a wedge on his hand. In any case Scott is in between theories and has some of both. Never negated several elite players are  bumping left then turning. I said the best ball strikers are doing differently. Check some quotes from Malone and you will be surprised.

[32quattro]

  mvmac said:

And just because the pressure "settles" under the right foot during transition, it doesn't mean the hips aren't sliding.

Again this is what is going on with the left hip socket, right hip socket, and center of the hip girdle for good players during the swing. This isn't our opinion, this is just what's happening.

Again, tour players from present and past some bump left, some don't. I understand you want evidence of but let me pause on these and the diagram

[iacas]

@32quattro , please multiquote. . Thank you.

  32quattro said:

Again, is not a slide, the hips move forward as a consequence of other components in the swing, I just replied to you one line up. Sorry to insist but don't change my words. The "illusion" so to speak, never tried to prove there was not a forward movement of the hips but just that an object can be seen in a different position (right of a line for example) with a simple rotation (reason for a vice and a toy)

a) If the golfer simply rotated around his left hip joint, his left hip would not move toward the target. This has been said many times in many ways. Please get that. It busts your drill argument.

b) I don't care why a golfer slides his hips forward, just that they do. We've taught the move successfully to people with many, many different feels: some even feel their left knee driving down and out, or staying flexed longer, or externally rotating more. Some feel it purely in the hips. Some feel that they tip their heads back (though their heads stay steady and they "tip back" by creating secondary axis tilt by sliding their hips forward).

The hips of the game's best golfers travel forward AS they rotate. It is not an illusion.

  32quattro said:

Roulette. The idea was showing something that doesn't move forward (vice/roulette) and have a rotating motion included. I know Sam Snead hips are ahead when on his left foot. I wasn't clear on that but no worries, it is not a big deal

The roulette wheel is a lousy example. The left hip joint is not the center of rotation.

We have never said the hips don't rotate. The rotation, however, is paired with a sliding. As my oval graphic illustrates.

  32quattro said:

Adam Scott. The left knee move left and we agree. He is not turning more  with his buttock because he doesn't need in this picture, he has a wedge on his hand. In any case Scott is in between theories and has some of both. Never negated several elite players are  bumping left then turning. I said the best ball strikers are doing differently. Check some quotes from Malone and you will be surprised.

Oh brother. You've said several times "no slide" or variations of that.

Do you consider Ben Hogan an elite ballstriker?

Red is address. And since Hogan's feet don't move, this is more than just a tiny bit of "translation" or sliding than would be caused by rotation alone.

  32quattro said:

Again, tour players from present and past some bump left, some don't. I understand you want evidence of but let me pause on these and the diagram

No, to be clear, virtually every PGA Tour player slides left with every club. More so with the mid-irons, a bit less so with the driver.

---

@32quattro , I'm going to have to insist that you bring something to the table here, as this conversation has not really moved along much. You keep shifting goalposts and playing word games. You keep saying they do not slide, and then that some do, and that good ball strikers do not, etc. Enough, man.

[32quattro]

  iacas said:

@32quattro, please multiquote.  ​ . Thank you.

Man I just replied to your previous one, I didn't see this one, my wife is killing me on the back (I love golf !) Let me sink this in and I elaborate.I forgot to ask you about the diagram, I had some questions for you, hold on