Your Putting Style: Utley or Pelz?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I don't think its splitting hairs.  I think it is pretty important.  Putting is the most scientific part of the game, IMO.  A small tweak can work wonders or wreak havoc and, while that is true in the full swing, not to the same extent IMO.

I don't know how you'd call putting "the most scientific part of the game" given that we have Trackman, biomechanics guys, etc. studying the full swing. But that's neither here nor there. We've got a SAM PuttLab because we like science. I just don't know that I'd rank putting anywhere near the top. Hell, we put more science into shaft technology than "putting" in my opinion. But again, neither here nor there. Sorry.

If you define "SBST" as having 100% adherence then every other stroke is an arc stroke. That strikes me as kind of stupid (I'm speaking generally, not to you john). Instead, I think "No arc" is at one end of the gradient, "too much arc" is somewhere towards the other end, and nearly everyone is somewhere between the two extremes. Except Billy Mayfair or the people who take the putter back outside even SBST and then do goodness knows what on the forward stroke.

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I agree "Arc" is not "utley's method". However, if you read the two books, Pelz presents a very scientific approach backed by robotics he has constructed to mimic different putting styles on perfect greens.

No offense intended by this, and I'm glad you like Pelz and have improved, but science has always been his weak spot. I feel like he built his "Perfy" putter to have an SBST stroke and then backed into the determination that "it's the best." Read uttexas's post about how the shoulders have to move to putt like that (I posted two ways before, with the "shrugging" being as he described and the horizontal spine being the only other way I can imagine it working).

The thing is I could build a putter that putts like a screen door and it'l be just as accurate because... it's a robot. A machine. It can deliver the putter head the same way to the ball every time, even if it makes six figure-8s on the backswing. Pelz had a theory and created data to back it up. That's how it always struck me.

I like his thoughts on the short game (not all of them, but a good chunk) but have never liked his putting stuff or his science, on the whole.

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Its sounds to me like you were generating power from a body pivot, and when you got short you had no pivot and so no acceleration of the hands (Pelz discusses this in his troubleshooting section and it leads to exactly the misses you describe).

The best putters in the world don't accelerate the putter through impact. The best putters in the world are beginning to decelerate the putter at impact. And by "best" they're not just using PGA Tour pros (though admittedly the great putters on the PGA Tour are included - but the average or even good ones aren't).

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Because it is better.  You remove a piece of the swing that can cause error (the toe moving faster than the heel).  When you say "the shoulders" don't move that way, what you are really saying is "the big muscles that control the shoulders (which is actually in the upper back) move that way naturally".

If we're going to state opinions as facts, do I win because I say "It is not better"? No. So let's not do that, okay?

Rich is a doctor. I think he knows how the muscles and bones work. I agree with what he said particularly since it aligns with both common sense as well as my experience. I think Rich said precisely what he "[meant] to say."

Again, I'm happy you like the Pelz method, but I've yet to see or hear anything from anyone which convinces me that "inside-down-the-line" isn't the way to go. Not a lot inside - it's a very small arc - and not even inside in the follow-through, more down the line.

Also, I still contend that you improved your putting because you practiced it every day for six months. We'll never know but had you practiced a different stroke, an "IDTL" stroke or even "ISI," that you wouldn't be an even better putter. Or maybe you'd be worse. We don't know.

But I do think you're giving too much credit to the Pelz method and not enough credit to simply practicing your stroke every day for six months. PGA Tour players have flaws in their swings. They get by because their timing is impeccable because they hit 400 balls a day (or whatever).

P.S. You should film your putting stroke and post it. I've done so in the past. Maybe I'll film it today when I'm downtown. Admittedly I haven't putted much the past six months (and not in about a month even once), but that's one of the beauties of my putting stroke in my opinion - it's really dependable and takes little to no effort to maintain. My SAM PuttLab numbers are really good, too. :)

[bunkerputt]

Inside-square-inside.  I started golf with the mindset of simplifying every motion possible.  I thought a straight-line was "simpler" than a curve, and I read on the same day that you shouldn't use your hands and wrists when putting.  My solution was to try to force a straight line by tilting and crunching the obliques to "rock" the shoulders.  Distance control was pathetic, not to mention that my putting sucked after an ab workout.  What a stupid and ridiculous contortion to go through.  Eventually I started focusing on the muscles of the shoulder girdle and relaxing the obliques.  Net result:  tons of feel, natural feedback, superb distance control.  Who would have thought that the hands and arms provide better sensory feedback than the abdominals.  Go figure.  Anyway, resulting stroke is inside-square-inside.  Note that the curve isn't as curved as the naysayers think.  It's practically straight.  The slight curvature prevents manipulation by the hands (or obliques as in my case) and is the natural way to stroke it with no loss in accuracy.

[uttexas]

Some of the best putters on tour Luke Donald--inside to square to inside [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAx-xlwpblw[/VIDEO] Steve Stricker--says he "feels" sbst, but he is really inside to square to inside [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aZLq2zH7g8[/VIDEO]

[mdl]

Thought I'd add one thing that I've noticed and was reminded of by the Stricker video above.  I subscribe to the pendulum style putting, which as lots of people have said leads to at least a slight arc. I try to get that pendulum action by sort of rocking or rotating my shoulders or upper back back and forth around a point on my spine.  If I stand up a little too straight and that shoulder rotation gets a little to flat, I get a bigger arc on the back swing, end up pretty far inside the putting line, and tend to push my putts.  If I go for the feel of a more vertical rocking and a SBST club head path, I tend to putt much better.  But even when trying to get a feeling of a vertical rock and a SBST motion, I have a clear but slight arc in the actual motion.

[johnclayton1982]

Hm.  I may have to eat a little crow here.  Hopefully, as a relatively new member, I don't come off too poorly....

I believe the appropriate face is this one:

Following Iacas' suggestion, and hoping to show a good SBST stroke, I videotaped my putting stroke today on the practice green at my club (owning your own business is nice because you can leave at noon to test putter hypothesis from the internet. ).  I did a sideview, a view behind me, a view head on from the hole and an on the ground view.  I had hoped they would show a good stroke, some made putts, and SBST.

Unfortunately, after viewing the tapes, I realized I was arc'ing my swing slightly.  It isn't visible on any of the camera angles EXCEPT the camera on the ground behind my putter (an Edel blade).  Its no point in disguising the results - I had a slight arc to my putting.  It sure looks SBST from my eyes, but it definately arcs a tiny bit.  I am clearly opening and then closing the face slightly back and through.  After viewing this (and thinking "could this be right?") I put the ping putter app on my putter handle for the first time in a few months.  Turns out I do have an arc to my swing, as proven by the Ping - between 1.1 and 2.1 degrees (about a 1.2* open club face to a 1.9* open clubface at impact).  This really floored me - I did all those @#$@#$@ SBST drills (although 1 degree off isn't that bad)!

After regrouping with a club sandwich and steak fries in the clubhouse, I went back out, trying to putt SBST - and it was pretty bad.  Then I noticed something interesting - the further I got outside my "normal" angle in the high 1s to low 2s (1.5 to 2.1 seems to be my sweet spot) the worse my putts got, *but it didn't seem to matter which direction*.  In other words, if my angle was in between 1.3 and 2.3, my putting was really good.  If my angle was below 1.3 OR above 2.3, the putts got progressively worse.  In fact, anything above 3* was awful, and anything below .2 (and into the negatives) was equally terrible.

Interesting results.  Not sure what to make of it - it seems that it isn't the arc that matters, but having a very consistent arc that matters.  Another really interesting result was that on right to left breaking putts with alot of break, I was consistently missing the arc by about 3 degrees (which is a huge difference).  I really struggle with these putts on the course (right to left big breaking putts), sometmies 3 putting them (luckily they are rare).  My arc would jump by 3 degrees on these putts.  Not sure why, probably a subconcious thing.  I swung the putter in a very large arc when I thought i needed to hit it way left.  A swing thought of "hit it right" started to help, and will be something I start incorporating in game when faced with a big right to left break.

So, I think I have to eat some crow here.  I'm not sure what to think now, as in theory SBST as outlined by Pelz should be better IMO.  But I do have an arc, and I'm not sure how I could "try" to get rid of a 1.5* arc, or even if I want to.  Hm.

Tommorow I am going to try to figure out how to chop the video up (I did one really long video, as I'm not the best with electronics) and post.

I would respond to some other things in your post above, but I'm still really surprised at those videos.  I couldn't believe it when I saw it on the video replay.  I even unhooked the DVD player in the locker room and hooked in my digital camera to watch on the big TV because I thought the cameras tiny preview screen was fooling me.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Interesting results.  Not sure what to make of it - it seems that it isn't the arc that matters, but having a very consistent arc that matters.

You have already arrived at the correct answer.

[iacas]

The simplest way I have of backing up your story, john (great post btw, glad you chose to check it for yourself - that says a lot about you) is simply to relay something Dean Thompson told me. He's the inventor of the Z-Factor putting thingy.

He said that he'll get guys that say they are SBST putters. He'll rig up the Z-Factor for an SBST stroke and to a man, every single person who claims to be SBST and who is put into the SBST setup on the Z-Factor immediately says "ugh, I hate this, this feels terrible!"

Virtually everyone putts on an arc, especially on putts over 10 feet or so. It'd be abnormal not to. Again, as John discovered, some arcs are smaller than others. Shallower. Some arcs are too severe, too. Mine tends to get a bit too severe, so I will often "feel" a bit more like it's SBST, but in my mind I know it's truly just shallowing my arc out a bit.

Good post John. Thanks for making it and taking the time to video yourself.

P.S. What Stretch says.

[zipazoid]

Quote:

Unfortunately, after viewing the tapes, I realized I was arc'ing my swing slightly.  It isn't visible on any of the camera angles EXCEPT the camera on the ground behind my putter (an Edel blade).  Its no point in disguising the results - I had a slight arc to my putting.  It sure looks SBST from my eyes, but it definately arcs a tiny bit.

This was exactly my point in my earlier post in this thread (which I now can't find...?), that from the vantage point of the player, 'straight back' isn't. It's actually a little inside the line. And further, if a player tries to take it straight back they risk going OUTSIDE the line which apparently only Billy Mayfair can pull off. For the rest of us, that's death. Can't putt that way...at least not consistently.

Some may note that I try to simplify the game as much as I can. No, I've never putting with a track or done a video analysis of my stroke or whatever. I just know that the simple thought of taking it back a little inside is a simple thought that really helps my putting. Don't really care what Pelz or Utley or the research says. It works for me.

K. I. S. S.

[BallStriker]

I am sure I putt inside square inside......i absolutely think 'straight back straight through and rock your shoulders' when over the ball......will also say that i am a right handed low, but have experimented with left hand low.....and when going cross-handed, there is no doubt that straight back straight through is the right move and thought.

my 2 cents

[johnclayton1982]

Some interesting stuff from some testing on the putting green yesterday related to putter arcs.

Played a round with two guys, one a really good older golfer and one a relatively new young golfer who isn't very good.  After the round, I otld them I'd buy them lunch if they'd hit a bunch of putts for me on the green.  Some interesting stuff:

Golfer 1 - 4 hdcp, good putter (20 putts):  Average 3.5* arc to open face.  Really good putts when between 3.1 and 3.9 arc.  Got progressively worse outside this range.  Large arc (almost twice mine) but still a good putter.

Golfer 2 - 20+ hdcp, terrible putter (20 putts):  Average 2.8* arc to open.  But here is the interesting thing: only hit 4 "good" putts (w/n 1 ft. from 30 feet).  Both of those putts were much more open (around 4.5* open).  Most putts were in the 2.2 to 2.9* open range and most had a poor line.

Here is the really interesting part.  The guys came over for the Saints game (one, the older, my dad) and at halftime we went in the basement on my laseraimer.  The first golfer consistently aimed about 2 inches to the left with his putter.  The poorer golfer (second golfer) aimed way left- between 5 and 8 inches left.

So this is pretty interesting.  The older golfer has had the same putter for a very long time, and his natural arc (mid-3* open) matches up to his aiming the putter left- the two end up straight.  The poorer golfer, *who actually had a tighter arc*, only putted well when arc matches his aim (overwhelmingly left).  We fooled around with some old putters we had lying around, and found one (a Rossa Balero Spider) that the poorer golfer aimed about 1.8" left on average, which would match up with his aim bias.  We are playing a round at 1:30 and he is going to use the new putter, that matches his average arc to his aim bias.  I will post the results.

It would be interesting if there was some advantage to be gained by matching average arc with average "aim miss" on the laser.  A poor man's fitting, if you will.  This could also have something to do with why some people say a putter "feels right" - the person knows their natural arc, and subconsciously matches the aim?  This would also explain why I struggled when I first got my Edel - I had aimed actually left with my old putter, not bad, but about an inch.  Now that I've had my Edel, I aim it fairly striaght, and with my tight arc I putt well.

I wonder if the relationship between aim bias with a putter and natural arc is worth exploring.  What I found particularly interesting was that with two players of wildly varying skill level they both exhibited very stable arcs.  I had expected the poorer player to have much more variation, but that wasn't the case.  Both seemed to have a natural arc.  It is a tiny sample size, so no conclusions can be reached, but its interesting.  I am interested to see how the poorer putter putts with a putter that matches his aim bias to his arc.

Edit: My laser setup is not perfect - its a cheap laser aimer, tape on the putter face, and a screen, but I think it works pretty well, although I used a naked eye and level to center it, so it might not be as accurate as a Edel fitters aimer.

2nd Edit:  Maybe aiming dead center with the laseraimer shouldn't be the goal.  Given a swing tempo, you could figure out where your optimal aim point is given your arc, and probably isn't center.

[johnclayton1982]

Another small point: the place for the practice putts was a very flat putt (very little break).  I was trying to remove all the variables.  However, it was amazing how the numbers lined up with the arc and laseraimer for both golfers.  "Good speed" seemed to just occur when the putter putted close to his natural arc.

Interesting stuff.

Edit: By "natural arc" I mean "average arc" over 20 putts.

[colin007]

i "try" to putt inside-square-downtheline for my putts. but then again, my putting is shakier than muhammad ali pushing michael j fox on rollerskates...

[BuckeyeNut]

I'll be honest....I have no freakin' clue how I putt.....

I aim.....I stroke it.....it either goes in, or it doesn't. LOL......I'm definitely a feel putter.  I can roll the pill though......be very afraid!!  LOL

I averaged 1.65 putts per hole, 1.80 putts in GIR, and 29.62 putts per round without ever thinking about it in 2011.

[BuckeyeNut]

Dave vs utley?

I have no clue what that means...LOL

[Stretch]

Putting has been the bane of my game, but I've started to get it together after focusing on Mike Shannon's idea of "tightening" the stroke as much as possible. Basically, this means limiting both stroke length and face rotation as much as possible, not by artificially manipulating the face (a la SBST) but by adopting a consistent setup and a simple mechanic that follows from it. The basic idea is explained below:

As ever, YMMV.

[deronsizemore]

Pardon me if this has been touched on, but I didn't have time to read through every page of the thread.

In my experience (which was mentioned by uttexas his Steve Stricker video above) is that what feels like SBST, really isn't.

Here's a test. If you have tile floors somewhere in your house, line the sight line of the putter up with one of the grout lines and then make a stroke trying to do a SBST stroke. Once you reach the end of your backstroke, see where the putter is. I bet it's inside of the grout line.

It a lot of people try the inside-square-inside stroke and fail because they try to force the putter inside on the backstroke and then inside again on the through stroke. When you do that, you're taking it too far inside.

In my stroke, all I try to do is take it SBST and I know that even though I feel like that's what's happening, it really isn't.

[Ben]

Someone's been digging up some old threads... Anyway.

There's an oversight in choices. Rotella

Have whatever mechanics you'd like. What's important is that your focus is on the target, making the putt.

That's my putting style.