The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[ugottabjoshinme]

I definately need a little help with the downswing. In the book, I'm looking at the picture on page 181 in the Fault Tree No. 3. I am definately in the position on the left side of the picture. I don't know where i read it, but I thought someone had told me that the hip push forward can be initiated by pushing the right knee into the left knee. From this section of the book, this breakdown of the right knee is clearly not good. I have two main misses right now. Either I hit behind the ball, or I push the ball way right. To me, both of these problems could be caused from being in the position of the left picture on page 181.

So I guess I need a way to stay in that stacked position on the downswing. I guess I'm looking for some sort of feeling of what this should feel like, or how to initiate the downswing without pushing the hips so far that you end up in that bad position? Anyone have any ideas?

[iacas]

I don't know where i read it, but I thought someone had told me that the hip push forward can be initiated by pushing the right knee into the left knee.

Push the right knee _towards_ the left knee (while the left knee continues to push forward, just outside of your front foot). The right knee will often feel like it's getting straighter through the downswing while the left knee feels like it's gaining flex. The right knee should not bend more, because the only direction it can really bend is out towards the ball. You want the right knee banking inward, towards the target and down the line... not gaining flex.

It's a bit more "feeling" than "reality" but here's a video that demonstrates it fairly well. Note that the right knee won't move towards the ball in this video:

[bustaone]

Push the right knee _towards_ the left knee (while the left knee continues to push forward, just outside of your front foot). The right knee will often feel like it's getting straighter through the downswing while the left knee feels like it's gaining flex. The right knee should not bend more, because the only direction it can really bend is out towards the ball. You want the right knee banking inward, towards the target and down the line... not gaining flex.

That video shows just how much forward movement is involved in the swing. I think that by moving forward during the swing you extend the distance the club stays in the hitting zone and add consistancy.

[alisdair]

For successful S&T; adopters: how did you change from having a square clubface at address to having it a degree or two open?

I'm struggling with straight-draw and straight-hook, and find that if I rotate the club open and regrip, after waggling my wrists seem to automatically rotate back to square the face. Then they move back open at impact. The result of this can vary from a straight-hook to a push-slice, which I'm sure you can imagine is difficult to manage around the course.

What did you do to get a consistent small change in how open the clubface is?

[saevel25]

After reading the comments, i kinda get why people like this swing. It does simplify things, and it allows for people with less athletic swings to gain extra distance. The fundamental change also gets them more on a inside swing path for the draw. But i have read elsewere that some of the Pro's have been ditching the swing. I also read that alot of people think there are issues with the strain it would put on the back when you start tilting away from the target at the finish.

It just tells me that there are a multitude of ways to play this game, and each to his own. I think the best is to find your own path in the golf and go with it. I personally like my swing, though it can deteriorate fast, but i found a Pro who went through the same thing i am going through now. So i can relate through his swing to mine, and i find that comforting.

[iacas]

But i have read elsewere that some of the Pro's have been ditching the swing.

And what's happened to Mike Weir's world ranking since leaving? Or Baddeley's?

I also read that alot of people think there are issues with the strain it would put on the back when you start tilting away from the target at the finish.

Already addressed previously. Nobody's even missed a week on Tour because of a back injury, and no golfers I've seen or Dave has seen or anyone has seen - including 75-year-old guys - has had back issues.

If you're not working with the Stack and Tilt pattern, please leave this thread to those who are. As I've said a few times, this isn't a general gossip or chit-chat thread.

[mvmac]

For successful S&T; adopters: how did you change from having a square clubface at address to having it a degree or two open?

Grip it with the face already slightly open and make sure the hands are slightly past the ball at address. Some forward press will help keep the face open.

[Zeph]

Does S&T; perscribe an open club face in order to hit a draw?

If I want to have an open club face at impact, I rotate the club before taking my grip.

[colin007]

open face to start the ball to the right, and then the club path is a few degrees to the right of the club face, so that it draws back to the target.

[Leftygolfer]

For me it was natural. I have always addressed the ball with a open face to compensate for a too strong of grip. With any change it takes time to get used too. The ball flight stance thing is the hardest part. I used to pull everything with a draw to make my over the top move ok and playable. Now that I have changed to a push draw, I feel like I am looking at the target. But the increases in distance and height is well worth it. I am getting used to the changes and liking my new swing. I am not sure if I am totally S&T;(pretty confident I am not) because I only play off feel and don't use a video camera, but I like the changes. I still hit the big pull from time to time, but I feel more confident than ever.

[colin007]

you are much better than i am, but the truth is, "feel isnt real".

[Leftygolfer]

you are much better than i am, but the truth is, "feel isnt real".

No doubt about that. I know I am lining up correct but it is a process to get "used" to it. What is real is that I am seeing results and hitting it more pure than ever. The increase in driving distance of 20 to 30 yards it very real.

[iacas]

you are much better than i am, but the truth is, "feel isnt real".

We like that phrase. But I'm not sure what you mean and how it applies here. To hit a draw that ends up at the target, the ball has to start right (for a righty) of the target. That requires a clubface open to the target.

[alisdair]

As a follow-up to my own question: video showed me that my problem is my stubborn tendency to roll my wrists through impact. I've corrected my right-hand grip back to neutral and I'm working on holding the face square (well, slightly open) to the path.

I have no idea how anyone can work on something as major as S&T; without video or an instructor. I felt like I was almost there, but video showed me that I have a long way to go.

Does anyone know of any S&T; friendly instructors in the UK? Everyone I speak to around here is simultaneously terrified and dismissive of the pattern. There must be a huge market for a S&T; two-day course somewhere in England or Scotland.

[iacas]

Does anyone know of any S&T; friendly instructors in the UK? Everyone I speak to around here is simultaneously terrified and dismissive of the pattern. There must be a huge market for a S&T; two-day course somewhere in England or Scotland.

Mike and Andy just had a one-day class in the UK somewhere. I forget where.

I suggest you sign up for evolvr. Talk to Zeph and he'll tell you how well that's worked for him.

[clubhousehero]

I've read most of this thread so far and its some interesting stuff. I was trying to avoid it because i didn't want to mess my swing up with conflicting theories and different swing thoughts.

Anyway, i didn't get to a range before i tee-d off for the first time this year and felt HORRIBLE warming up. like i've never swung a club before. So i decided to keep it simple stupid and hit the ball great!

Couple days later i go to the range before a round and worked on what i stumbled upon. Again great results on the range and course. Hit a nice push draw all day except for the push on the first tee. I ended up playing 2 of my best rounds with hardly any range time or practice with my new swing.

I later go to my GF's house and talk with her dad who is an avid golfer. Anyway i tell him about my swing changes and he tells me they are very S&T; like and that he was reading the book and making similer changes himself. Thats why i finally looked here.

Anyway what i do is play the ball back of center in my stance with my hands in-front of the ball and my weight centered. (driver and 3h are about centered though) Take the club back to the inside with my shoulders and i try and keep my arms real close to my body and little to no weight shift. Then i just kinda swing with my arms and body almost at the same time.

So far things have worked out pretty well but i am wondering what if any disadvantages could their be with my swing the way it is? What advantages could S&T; have over what i'm doing? How similar are they?

[iacas]

Anyway what i do is play the ball back of center in my stance with my hands in-front of the ball and my weight centered. (driver and 3h are about centered though) Take the club back to the inside with my shoulders and i try and keep my arms real close to my body and little to no weight shift. Then i just kinda swing with my arms and body almost at the same time.

Small corrections... You'll want to adjust your ball position. Center of the stance for a wedge, left heel or so for a driver is still pretty much the standard. Nothing back of center. Weight 55/45 or so left.

Also, the club doesn't go back to the inside, the hands do - they trace the arc of the inclined plane and move back, up, and IN. Increase the pressure between your left arm and chest, and keep the logo on the back of your glove pointing down at the ball to keep the clubface square to the inclined plane.

[DannyG]

Great interview on Charlie Rose with Golf instructors Mike Bennett & Andy Plummer, authors of

In this interview Andy Plummer starts by talking about how important it is to understand the flight path before anything else yet they don't address it until far into the book, starting on page 119. I find their explanation a little confusing (it doesn't help that I'm a lefty and have to mentally switch the words left and right when reading.) Has anyone seen a better illustration or video of their explanation?