The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[ugottabjoshinme]

I have a question about proper wrist hinge. In the book (page 61) it says that the wrists should hinge continuously to the top, creating a 90-degree angle with the left arm. My question is about the direction that the wrists hinge. If I hold my hands out infront of my body (arms horizontal) with my palms facing and touching each other, I can move my wrists so that my fingers move to the left and right or so that my fingers move up and down. Is this wrist hinge so that my fingers move up and down the feeling that I want in my backswing? It feels weird to me to hinge my wrists in this direction. It feels like this type of hinge opens up my clubface more than it should be.

But I know that hinging the wrists so that my fingers move left and right (in the original described set-up) is wrong because that wrist hinge changes the angle between the club and my right arm. Am I looking at this the right way?

[Ping for life]

I purchased the S&T book saturday read up to the part in the book where you go out and hit 50 shots. On sunday I went out and practiced what I had learned, I was a bit skeptical at first but 30 shots into it I was hitting the ball with more compression and hitting it farther and straighter than I did all of last year. Suffice it to say I was looking forward to reading more about it after such a eye opening practice session. One question I have for all of you people that are shrugging this off as a fad or just because Hank isn't teaching it the S&T must be a passing fad. Whatever it ends up being if you keep an open mind and READ the whole book instead of giving analysis on something you A. have not tried or B. have not read completely to understand the why's and how comes of the swing. Your bashing of it is unfounded in any practical hands on application of it. Will it work for everyone? NO I don't believe it will, some people just will not be able to break away from what they feel is the best way to swing a club. But for some it may be a light bulb above the head moment where they realize this is what it's like to hit a golf ball well and consistantly. Is that not what we all would like to do? If what you are doing now works for you GREAT!! you have no need for it. If what you are doing now makes you want to give up the game and play tennis, try it out you just may end up keeping your clubs and enjoying the great game of golf for many years. It's true the great players seemed to be able to do things we mere mortals cannot. But if you look closely much of what they did well is incorporated in the S&T method. If the S&T is not for you reply to other threads where you may know of what you speak, instead of dismissing something you don't. If you tried it and hated it, well sorry that it didn't work out for you I hope you eventually find something that does.

[iacas]

I have a question about proper wrist hinge. In the book (page 61) it says that the wrists should hinge continuously to the top, creating a 90-degree angle with the left arm. My question is about the direction that the wrists hinge. If I hold my hands out infront of my body (arms horizontal) with my palms facing and touching each other, I can move my wrists so that my fingers move to the left and right or so that my fingers move up and down.

Your right and left hand hinge differently. Actually, only your left wrist hinges, the right wrist bends or folds. If you hold your hands out in front of you with your palms facing each other, your left wrist is like a hijacker - you move the thumb (on top) towards your nose. That's wrist cocking. The right wrist bends backwards so that your knuckles move towards your forearm.

You don't cock your left hand 90°. The club at address already forms an angle there, and because your right wrist folds and is below your left, that helps add to the cocking too. Most people can't cock their left wrist more than 20 degrees or so - but that's about all you need. Stand at address and just cock the left wrist up - the club will get to just past horizontal. That's all.

If you tried it and hated it, well sorry that it didn't work out for you I hope you eventually find something that does.

And, truth be told, most people that try it and don't like it probably weren't doing a few of the parts right.

[ugottabjoshinme]

I definately need a little help with the downswing. In the book, I'm looking at the picture on page 181 in the Fault Tree No. 3. I am definately in the position on the left side of the picture. I don't know where i read it, but I thought someone had told me that the hip push forward can be initiated by pushing the right knee into the left knee. From this section of the book, this breakdown of the right knee is clearly not good. I have two main misses right now. Either I hit behind the ball, or I push the ball way right. To me, both of these problems could be caused from being in the position of the left picture on page 181.

So I guess I need a way to stay in that stacked position on the downswing. I guess I'm looking for some sort of feeling of what this should feel like, or how to initiate the downswing without pushing the hips so far that you end up in that bad position? Anyone have any ideas?

[iacas]

I don't know where i read it, but I thought someone had told me that the hip push forward can be initiated by pushing the right knee into the left knee.

Push the right knee _towards_ the left knee (while the left knee continues to push forward, just outside of your front foot). The right knee will often feel like it's getting straighter through the downswing while the left knee feels like it's gaining flex. The right knee should not bend more, because the only direction it can really bend is out towards the ball. You want the right knee banking inward, towards the target and down the line... not gaining flex.

It's a bit more "feeling" than "reality" but here's a video that demonstrates it fairly well. Note that the right knee won't move towards the ball in this video:

[bustaone]

Push the right knee _towards_ the left knee (while the left knee continues to push forward, just outside of your front foot). The right knee will often feel like it's getting straighter through the downswing while the left knee feels like it's gaining flex. The right knee should not bend more, because the only direction it can really bend is out towards the ball. You want the right knee banking inward, towards the target and down the line... not gaining flex.

That video shows just how much forward movement is involved in the swing. I think that by moving forward during the swing you extend the distance the club stays in the hitting zone and add consistancy.

[alisdair]

For successful S&T adopters: how did you change from having a square clubface at address to having it a degree or two open?

I'm struggling with straight-draw and straight-hook, and find that if I rotate the club open and regrip, after waggling my wrists seem to automatically rotate back to square the face. Then they move back open at impact. The result of this can vary from a straight-hook to a push-slice, which I'm sure you can imagine is difficult to manage around the course.

What did you do to get a consistent small change in how open the clubface is?

[saevel25]

After reading the comments, i kinda get why people like this swing. It does simplify things, and it allows for people with less athletic swings to gain extra distance. The fundamental change also gets them more on a inside swing path for the draw. But i have read elsewere that some of the Pro's have been ditching the swing. I also read that alot of people think there are issues with the strain it would put on the back when you start tilting away from the target at the finish.

It just tells me that there are a multitude of ways to play this game, and each to his own. I think the best is to find your own path in the golf and go with it. I personally like my swing, though it can deteriorate fast, but i found a Pro who went through the same thing i am going through now. So i can relate through his swing to mine, and i find that comforting.

[iacas]

But i have read elsewere that some of the Pro's have been ditching the swing.

And what's happened to Mike Weir's world ranking since leaving? Or Baddeley's?

I also read that alot of people think there are issues with the strain it would put on the back when you start tilting away from the target at the finish.

Already addressed previously. Nobody's even missed a week on Tour because of a back injury, and no golfers I've seen or Dave has seen or anyone has seen - including 75-year-old guys - has had back issues.

If you're not working with the Stack and Tilt pattern, please leave this thread to those who are. As I've said a few times, this isn't a general gossip or chit-chat thread.

[mvmac]

For successful S&T adopters: how did you change from having a square clubface at address to having it a degree or two open?

Grip it with the face already slightly open and make sure the hands are slightly past the ball at address. Some forward press will help keep the face open.

[Zeph]

Does S&T perscribe an open club face in order to hit a draw?

If I want to have an open club face at impact, I rotate the club before taking my grip.

[colin007]

open face to start the ball to the right, and then the club path is a few degrees to the right of the club face, so that it draws back to the target.

[Leftygolfer]

For me it was natural. I have always addressed the ball with a open face to compensate for a too strong of grip. With any change it takes time to get used too. The ball flight stance thing is the hardest part. I used to pull everything with a draw to make my over the top move ok and playable. Now that I have changed to a push draw, I feel like I am looking at the target. But the increases in distance and height is well worth it. I am getting used to the changes and liking my new swing. I am not sure if I am totally S&T(pretty confident I am not) because I only play off feel and don't use a video camera, but I like the changes. I still hit the big pull from time to time, but I feel more confident than ever.

[colin007]

you are much better than i am, but the truth is, "feel isnt real".

[Leftygolfer]

you are much better than i am, but the truth is, "feel isnt real".

No doubt about that. I know I am lining up correct but it is a process to get "used" to it. What is real is that I am seeing results and hitting it more pure than ever. The increase in driving distance of 20 to 30 yards it very real.

[iacas]

you are much better than i am, but the truth is, "feel isnt real".

We like that phrase. But I'm not sure what you mean and how it applies here. To hit a draw that ends up at the target, the ball has to start right (for a righty) of the target. That requires a clubface open to the target.

[alisdair]

As a follow-up to my own question: video showed me that my problem is my stubborn tendency to roll my wrists through impact. I've corrected my right-hand grip back to neutral and I'm working on holding the face square (well, slightly open) to the path.

I have no idea how anyone can work on something as major as S&T without video or an instructor. I felt like I was almost there, but video showed me that I have a long way to go.

Does anyone know of any S&T friendly instructors in the UK? Everyone I speak to around here is simultaneously terrified and dismissive of the pattern. There must be a huge market for a S&T two-day course somewhere in England or Scotland.

[iacas]

Does anyone know of any S&T friendly instructors in the UK? Everyone I speak to around here is simultaneously terrified and dismissive of the pattern. There must be a huge market for a S&T two-day course somewhere in England or Scotland.

Mike and Andy just had a one-day class in the UK somewhere. I forget where.

I suggest you sign up for evolvr. Talk to Zeph and he'll tell you how well that's worked for him.