The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[isampark]

That's a good question. It's a matter of two things.

Hello iacas,

I have question about longer clubs (i.e. Driver, 3 Woods). I found over the weekend on the range that with these longer clubs, I could hit it better and make it into Straight to Draw shot cone if I initiate the downswing with hip moving forward and turning. I really hit it well and effortlessly when I could feel my hip is "pulling" my arms. But then when I tried to re-create this sensation, it did not work so well. I would lag too much and pull the ball straight to the left of target line. What would you recommend me work on to get better on longer clubs?

[iacas]

I, and many others I'll bet, look forward to watching it.

Sorry, I posted it a few days ago:

I have question about longer clubs (i.e. Driver, 3 Woods).

Pre-set more weight forward and push the weight forward more. You pulled the ball because you came over it. Rotation happens on its own - just keep pushing forward even more with the longer clubs and rely on THAT to get the ball airborne.

I will also say that feel isn't always real or even a close approximation of real, so please try to post video if you're going to ask a question like this, because I might tell you something you don't need to do if what you've said isn't what's happening.

[muzz]

I bought the book and read almost all of it, but I have some concerns.......

One of the issues with the "Traditional" swing is the timing of the weight shift/slide left to right, but it sounds like this has timing issues to deal with as well, as you are told to "push" forward and "up" (launch).
Won't both of these end moves create timing issues, as pushing up too fast will cause thin shots, just like sliding to far/mistiming to the right can cause "fat" shots.

Am I imagining this?

[iacas]

One of the issues with the "Traditional" swing is the timing of the weight shift/slide left to right, but it sounds like this has timing issues to deal with as well, as you are told to "push" forward and "up" (launch). Won't both of these end moves create timing issues, as pushing up too fast will cause thin shots, just like sliding to far/mistiming to the right can cause "fat" shots.

In theory, yes, but in theory everything in the golf swing is a "timing" issue.

The fact that you have to push forward and up is true of every golf swing. Sorry - every good golf swing. It's not a unique piece in Stack and Tilt. Ben Hogan pushed forward and up. Sam Snead. Tiger, Phil, Rory, Sergio. Bobby Jones pushed forward and up. So even if you consider it a timing thing, it's an essential timing thing. Every good golf swing has it. It's one you can't get away from... and every teacher wants their students to finish forward and up.

[muzz]

I was under the impression that S&T; was supposed to be 'easier" to get consistent contact, and with having to do all this thrusting and launching, as well as all the tilting, it just seems like a different set of timing issues.
All I know is the more I read on here and the book, the less I am convinced that moving to a different set of timing issues is going to make hitting a golf ball any easier(FOR ME), it just seems like trading one set of problems for a different set.........
Not sure I'm going to screw around with this, it'll just make my normal ugly/inconsistent swing even more difficult to get back to.....I'm actually very concerned with the continual problems alot of folks have hitting FW/Driver, as that isn't an issue for me and I don't want it to become one.

I appreciate all the input folks have posted, at least I was able to see the issues before spending alot of time on it.

[iacas]

I was under the impression that S&T; was supposed to be 'easier" to get consistent contact, and with having to do all this thrusting and launching, as well as all the tilting, it just seems like a different set of timing issues.

I don't think you read what I wrote the way I intended to say it.

The best players all do these things. These things are NOT exclusive to Stack and Tilt. Another swing method will tell you to "swing your shoulders in a circle" and "keep your head steady." Stack and Tilt tells you HOW to do those things. But every good golfer "tilts" and "thrusts" and "launches."

All I know is the more I read on here and the book, the less I am convinced that moving to a different set of timing issues is going to make hitting a golf ball any easier(FOR ME), it just seems like trading one set of problems for a different set.....

Again, EVERY good swing has these components.

S&T; isn't something you can really easily learn on your own, but again that ALSO applies to EVERY other kind of golf swing. Now you can get to be pretty good on your own, but to reach your potential, you need help. If you're done, good luck with your "other" swing.

[sean_miller]

S&T; isn't something you can really easily learn on your own, but again that ALSO applies to EVERY other kind of golf swing. Now you can get to be pretty good on your own, but to reach your potential, you need help.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would every person's version of S&T; look a little different? I've read that certain aspects of the setup allow for some personal flair, whereas others are best to stick to the standard model.

My point is, some of the S&T; examples I've seen look sort of awkward (speaking of the professional players since many videos and photos feature exaggerated moves illustrating a point) and others look like poetry in motion to me - purely subjective of course. Does this mean that some professional players are doing S&T; wrong? Or is there some flexibility in the S&T; moves? Can players retain much of their pre-S&T; golf swing or is a rebuild the way to go?

[iacas]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would every person's version of S&T; look a little different? I've read that certain aspects of the setup allow for some personal flair, whereas others are best to stick to the standard model.

There's a range of acceptable values, yes.

Does this mean that some professional players are doing S&T; wrong? Or is there some flexibility in the S&T; moves? Can players retain much of their pre-S&T; golf swing or is a rebuild the way to go?

The thing that's not emphasized enough about S&T; is that it is composed of several pieces and you can work in one piece, two pieces, or a few more. JJ Henry is working with Bennett and Plummer and his swing doesn't look like Tommy Armour III's, Tim Herron's, Mike Weir's (did), or Troy Matteson's.

So it's a two-part answer: range of acceptable values + lots of pieces you can plug in to fix the bigger issues first.

[damnitdave]

for those having success with this swing does it seem like to you the ball stays in the air forever... made some drastic changes in the backswing and down swing..... use to bend the right elbow to much on the backswing so i feel like it straight for awhile... also been monitoring the loading of #4 trying to keep it in the 45 degree angle range... and to keep it simple on the downswing i think push.. straight.. tuck.... i've gained distance on the irons... hopefully the new ballflight isnt a bad thing...

[mvmac]

I'm hitting it higher with less spin, which is good for me. Much more shallow angle of attack, divots better too.

[shortstop20]

here is a swing of mike hitting a driver

So to all of the haters, what's so "radical" about this? It looks like many other good swings throughout time.

[iacas]

So to all of the haters, what's so "radical" about this? It looks like many other good swings throughout time.

Sorry to cut in, but that's not really what this thread's about. I'll quote myself from the first post:

This thread is for the discussion of the pattern: parts you find difficult, information about the pieces, the ball flight, the terms they use (most of which are TGM), etc. It's a place where people can get help with the pattern if they've adopted it or get information from others who have adopted it for those who are interested.

[colin007]

yesterday, i tried slowing down the hip push on the downswing, i almost had the feeling that i had been doing it too fast and it was causing a lunge/weight imbalance. pushing more slowly and more deliberately helped me push farther straight at the target before the natural rotation came in. of course, this could all be just a figment of my weak mind.

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

How much flex in the left knee during the backswing is too much?

[colin007]

How much flex in the left knee during the backswing is too much?

im not the expert, but i would say about the amount it flexes naturally that gives you the 45 degree hip turn.

[boogielicious]

I've had pretty good success working with S&T; since January. I'm starting to consistently shoot in the mid to high 80s and my ball contact is much better. I've only been seriously golfing since last summer and only played once a year or less for 15 years before that. I was basically starting from scratch and read all the books I could find. I liked the S&T; approach the best from the readings. Also, as I watch the Pros, I see most of them doing a lot of the S&T; method.

For me, I think of it as follows:

The weight forward at the start and throught the swing keeps me from shifting my shoulder center back and helps move the low point in the swing forward, reducing fat shots and making good contact. Hands in, shoulder turn, ball position and other factors control where on the swing circle the ball makes contact. This will determine the ball flight characteristics. I am drawing the ball more and my misses are more overdraws than anything else.

The thrust up to finish helps me with power. I think of it a pushing my right back pocket forward and up. I had a legitimate 300 yard drive last week and I am 50. My irons are 10 yards longer than last fall.

What I am working on is the relationship between ball position, my swing bottom point and how much open to have the club face to control where I want the ball to go. Also, I am working on reducing my tendency to use my right hand for controling the club. This causes the swing arc to get bigger and moves the swing bottom point back (fat shots).

I still have a long way to go and need to start videoing myself. But as an engineer, I find it comforting to have a systematic way to work on my swing and an easy way to analyze what I did wrong.

[bpschmid]

Erik J. and Dave W...happy to report that I finally "got it" at the range yesterday, thanks to a combination of your forums and vids...thanks fellas!! I never realized I was spinning my hips around on the downswing, instead of bumping the left hip laterally, toward the target. My new swing thought is....bump that left hip, and visualize keeping my rear hip pocket facing behind me, just like at address....once I stopped swiveling my hips around, lo and behold, my swing and footwork looks just like the Mike Bennet model...way easier to keep the arms together, stretch the back out and my rear foot doesn't spin out now...follow through is much easier to keep on S/T model too...ALL of this was because I was trying to TURN the hips like the classic swing model, instead of getting linear in my approach....can't say thanks enough guys!!

[iacas]

Erik J. and Dave W...happy to report that I finally "got it" at the range yesterday, thanks to a combination of your forums and vids...thanks fellas!! I never realized I was spinning my hips around on the downswing, instead of bumping the left hip laterally, toward the target. My new swing thought is....bump that left hip, and visualize keeping my rear hip pocket facing behind me, just like at address....once I stopped swiveling my hips around, lo and behold, my swing and footwork looks just like the Mike Bennet model...way easier to keep the arms together, stretch the back out and my rear foot doesn't spin out now...follow through is much easier to keep on S/T model too...ALL of this was because I was trying to TURN the hips like the classic swing model, instead of getting linear in my approach....can't say thanks enough guys!!

Good work, and good sensations. That's sometimes 90% of the battle - finding the right sensations that work for you. Awesome work - keep it up!