The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[alomar123]

Ok, I have gone full blown S&T; as I just feel that I am hitting more proper swings with more consistency. I have my hands deep and on or below the swing plane, but I am having trouble getting the club shaft on or below plane. I think it is due to trying to deepen my hands, it is harder to rotate my forearms clockwise. I haven't videotaped my swing, but it feels on a full swing that the club is parallel or even titled towards the target line(even though it probably isn't). Any tips on keeping the shaft on plane with the hands? I am also having a hard time with keeping my head still, but I know that will take a while to accomplish.

[Stretch]

You are probably taking the club head to the inside too quickly on the takeaway now that you are focusing on getting your hands deeper. This is a particular problem of mine, too, and definitely has the effect of making it hard to return on plane.

Take a look at this analysis that Zeph posted a while ago.

[iacas]

I haven't videotaped my swing, but it

Let's see the video before we make guesses based on feel.

[RubxQub]

So after doing some reading on "swing vs hit" methods, I was curious if S&T; applies to both, or if the general pattern prescribes a swing and not a hit.

Before I started adopting the S&T; principles, I was very much a hitter, and I can't help but think that I'm still trying to hit instead of swing. While I keep my left arm as straight as I can at the top and through the downswing, I mainly use my left arm to control the hand path, and use my right arm to push the club through that path (I hope I'm saying that right...)

Should I be trying to swing (pulling the club with my left arm) instead of hit (pushing the club with my right arm), or are both acceptable as long as you're doing the same motions?

[Stretch]

Only know this because I once asked the same question, but Bennett and Plummer say S&T; is a little of both, with slightly more "hitter" than "swinger".

[RubxQub]

Only know this because I once asked the same question, but Bennett and Plummer say S&T; is a little of both, with slightly more "hitter" than "swinger".

I find this news equal parts comforting and confusing. :)

Did they go into a bit more detail about how each plays into the overall swing that you can recall, or is this specifically mentioned in their book somewhere that I could just reference? I initially read their book before I had this concept in my pocket so it's quite possible I missed something about this in particular in there.

[iacas]

Did they go into a bit more detail about how each plays into the overall swing that you can recall, or is this specifically mentioned in their book somewhere that I could just reference?

It's bound to be different in everyone, but the "model" itself may be 60/40 hitter/swinger or 65/35 or 55/45... but since nobody (NOBODY) does the exact model, your particular swing may be 40/60 or 80/20 or who knows...

[Stretch]

I do the exact model. Just badly.

[RubxQub]

It's bound to be different in everyone, but the "model" itself may be 60/40 hitter/swinger or 65/35 or 55/45... but since nobody (NOBODY) does the exact model, your particular swing may be 40/60 or 80/20 or who knows...

I guess the comforting news is that being 80/20 hitter/swinger isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Thanks gents.

[nevets88]

Question about P6.

Looking at videos, good players have their knees in line at P6 from the DTL view. It looks like the back knee is covering up the front knee.

My right knee (righty) kicks out, above my toes at P6. Is this too much or okay?

[iacas]

My right knee (righty) kicks out, above my toes at P6. Is this too much or okay?

Likely you need to bank your right foot in more and lengthen the knee. The right heel should never "pop" off the ground - at worst it should be pulled off the ground (like your leg is asleep and you're dragging it forward).

[nevets88]

Likely you need to bank your right foot in more and lengthen the knee. The right heel should never "pop" off the ground - at worst it should be pulled off the ground (like your leg is asleep and you're dragging it forward).

Thanks for the quick response. I'll try that.

[nevets88]

Another question. The more you bring the shoulders down, does it feel like you have to bring your hands deep more?

If I bring the shoulders more down, my swing plane gets steeper and I hit more towards the heel.

[Zeph]

I try to let my shoulder plane dictate the hand path. The more my shoulders rotate on plane (not flat), the deeper my hands get and on a better path.

If I rotate the shoulders on plane and do nothing else, the hands will be on the right path. It's if I lift or pull the arms behind me that things get iffy.

[iacas]

Another question. The more you bring the shoulders down, does it feel like you have to bring your hands deep more?

I'll get to your question in a bit, but why do you say "shoulders"? The lead shoulder goes down, out, and back while the trail shoulder goes up, back, and forward. Only one shoulder goes "down."

If I rotate the shoulders on plane and do nothing else, the hands will be on the right path. It's if I lift or pull the arms behind me that things get iffy.

Technically the opposite is true. If you rotate your shoulders perfectly flat, the plane dictates that the hands get the steepest. If you could somehow rotate your shoulders perfectly vertically, they'd never gain any depth.

But the thing is this: the flatter the shoulder turn the more the tendency is to lift. It's this compensating move which prevents the shoulders from getting deep.

[nevets88]

I'll get to your question in a bit, but why do you say "shoulders"? The lead shoulder goes down, out, and back while the trail shoulder goes up, back, and forward. Only one shoulder goes "down."

You're right - lead shoulder down. I think I was swaying or tilting or not making a complete shoulder turn or doing something to make the hands go up/out instead of deep, but I think I figured it out.

Anyways, after a lesson with Steve Sieracki and alot of range time afterwards to let the whole thing sink in, I decided to go full bore into adopting the SnT pattern. I had a major problem at first after the lesson because the feelings were so different, but kept at it and I'm trying to do most of the bullet points now - weight forward, shoulder down, hands deep, back knee straighten a little, extend arms, raise the belt as opposed to just the weight forward hands deep part. Working especially on the weight shift forward, tuck butt and extend arms and I think I'm starting to get it. Hitting more straight, fewer fat shots now. If anyone is in the NYC metro area and looking for a SnT instructor, I highly recommend Steve Sieracki.

[nevets88]

Also wanted to mention - I was in the dubious camp of the SnT looks like it's bad for your back and I've read posts by those who are informed that it isn't, but I still was.

I've went to the range 5 days in a row and hit more than a few large buckets really working on the tuck the hip raise the belt motion. To my surprise - back feels fine. Not even sore. So I was wrong about that.

[nevets88]

Hypothetical:

If you implement most of the "parts" of SnT except for hands deep, that swing would involve a serious reroute down, no?

I'm guessing not many people implement the pattern without the hands deep part.