The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mchepp

For the experts. I know that the model has the player at 90 degrees of wrist c*ck at P3. If a player came to you with a big float load where they had a very late set of the wrists, so for example the player was at 115 at P3 but then float loaded the club into good positions, would the idea to be to remove that? What is the reasoning behind the 90 degrees of wrist c*ck at P3?

We wouldn't care and we wouldn't change it. S&T; - or whatever it is we teach at Golf Evolution - is simply a pattern of components. If someone has a unique component that doesn't require a compensation, like a float load that varies slightly from the model, but it doesn't cause them problems then why would we change it? To make someone fit some model better? That'd be silly.

I'm thinking of one guy we saw who never seemed to cock his wrists - they were at 150 to 160 degrees or so at P3 - and it led to problems where he'd bend his elbows (women tend to do this) and lift from P3 to P4, so we did tell that guy (a really extreme case ), to cock his wrists more quickly. I think he's about 105 right now and is doing fine with that.

We don't really care what the "model" says if someone does something well. We've taught people who shift off the ball four inches. If they're hitting the ball solidly, we don't care - we'll work on helping them hit it higher, or lower, or control the curve, or hit it farther... the model is just a model, a central line that separates a fairly wide range of acceptable values.

As to what the reasoning is, well, it's a reasonable rate to expect a golfer to load #2. But again... see below... ;-)

[TheRichie]

looking into this i noticed i do this naturaly every now and again. need to go the the range and do do it consiously and see how it helps, if it helps with not hitting fat them imma give it a good try as fat hits and common as soons as i get onto the course

is it the same weight on forward leg push hips out and extend arms when driving?

will it cure my slice?

[carpediem4300]

Originally Posted by TheRichie

looking into this i noticed i do this naturaly every now and again. need to go the the range and do do it consiously and see how it helps, if it helps with not hitting fat them imma give it a good try as fat hits and common as soons as i get onto the course

is it the same weight on forward leg push hips out and extend arms when driving?

will it cure my slice?

I cant really comment on wether it cures a slice or how you use it in the driver format, Iacas will know

but it didnt cure my slice, my driver swing is comparably different to my iron,hybrid shots.

i dont "S&T;" on my driver or fairway woods, perhaps i should?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by TheRichie

will it cure my slice?

Yeah, but any decent swing pattern should fix that. Some patterns may be more prone to a slice as your bad shot but all should "fix" it if executed properly.

[CuppedTin]

My Feeling...

I played 9 this morning and and was committed to my S&T; swing... I ended up 3 under and hit all fairways and greens in regulation.

I never really understood the TILT part until today. I have the feeling of getting my weight forward at address, well obviously my entire weight can't stay forward the entire time, but I kept that feeling in my head. Well, today i just had the feeling of tilting down towards the ball and my downswing felt like I was literally coming over the top and straight down on the ball. I realize that I have been so laid off at the top that chances are good that I am right on plane now. Anyway, the results speak for themselves, nice consistent divots everytime.

My driver is out of this world consistent, it's so consistent that I am incorporating the distance piece of jumping on the downswing. Are there anymore distance pieces that can be incorporated into the S&T;?

[nevets88]

That over the top feeling - at first I felt that way too. Actually, felt like shank was coming.

The abbreviated follow through has something to do with more distance IIRC. Something to do with acceleration. I think it's in the book somewhere.

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

... Well, today i just had the feeling of tilting down towards the ball and my downswing felt like I was literally coming over the top and straight down on the ball. I realize that I have been so laid off at the top that chances are good that I am right on plane now. Anyway, the results speak for themselves, nice consistent divots everytime.

...

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by nevets88

That over the top feeling - at first I felt that way too. Actually, felt like shank was coming.

The abbreviated follow through has something to do with more distance IIRC. Something to do with acceleration. I think it's in the book somewhere.

I really need the book...

[nevets88]

Pg 93, braking. Can't believe you don't have the book. Public libraries should have it. I have copies accessible from any browser, smartphone and tablet. I can look it up on the range. :~(

[jwalker497]

Sorry, I have not read all of this thread but just recently stumbled on S&T; (Terrible name btw) but I am having good success with it andI wanted to post my experience so far, in case some people are considering it.  I just stumbled upon it one day while suring and I was like -  hmm that kind of makes sense to me.  I  think it correctly identified my troubles and inconsistencies,  So I gave it a shot - and so far I am impressed.  I don't want to sound like a commercial and certaintly dont think its for everyone.  I also don't understand why this is such a hot topic and all the tour wins and all that nonsense either.  I just want to play better golf and I do believe this has helped me do that.

It definatley was odd feeling at first with the weight fwd but I now think it really keeps me still during my backswing and which helps my ball striking and finding a consistent bottom of my swing.  It feels normal now and am taking a divot which wasnt there before.  Also, my short game has improved i find that I am putting more spin on the ball and feel like I can be more aggressive on approaches.

I used to score in the low to mid 90s but have now been shooting in the 80s regularly.  I think more practice regardless of S&T; would have helped my cause but I feel like I am actually golfing now.  I have had 3 very good 9 holes stretches since using it where I shot 5 & 4 over had my first 9 hole stretch in the 30s - Par was 34 and I shot 38.  That's great for me.  I still have my mishits and have my occassional blow up hole but I do feel like I am progressing.

Also I had, for years struggled with a slight fade off the drive despite a lot of work and practice trying to negate it and draw the ball. I always felt that golf requires both a fade and a draw and really wanted to be able to hit both shots consistently.   Despite all my work, I never could draw the ball,  Even after focusing on my path, face angle, etc,    Finally, after using a very exxagerrated S&T; method, I am now able to hit a minor draw.  I still not very dramatic but it does draw a little and even if it doesn't draw, it stays left.  It's an awesome feeling when you say, I'm gonna stay left on this drive and do it.  Or say I am gonna fade this and pull it off.  for me that is one of the most addicting parts of the game, having control over your shot.  Putting it where you want.

[Precis1on]

First Post!

I recently made the switch over to S&T; (recently being about 4 days ago). I went through the book twice and started applying some of the basic principles, starting with the set-up.

It took me a while to really feel the proper "stacked" feeling. I was able to shift my weight to my left side at address, but I would lose that stacked feeling when I took the club away. To address the issue (that I had missed from the book), at set-up I would start 50/50, stack 60/40 to my left side, and then I would stick my butt out. This loaded the stacked feeling and created a powerful pivot feeling on my left leg. So my set-up thoughts were "Set (50/50) --> Stack (60/40) --> Stack (Butt out)".

Getting the setup right has already given me great results. I've always played a draw, but was having issues with my driver and woods. So far, I haven't had any issues that people seem to have with the driver using S&T.; I get set-up, take the club back, and focus on bringing the driver back, keeping my knuckles pointed down before and through impact.

Hope this helps some people, I will be working on applying some principles from the S&T; backswing next.

[cart7]

As someone who picked the game back up after 25 years,  I was really having problems making consistent ball strikes with woods or irons.  As someone who was formerly an 8 handicapper,  I felt like I was overpowering this new equipment with an old swing style.  Attempting to learn the newer swing styles with quieter feet and less left to right weight shift has been difficult.

My old swing style, BTW,  was very similar to Nicklaus's that Jack worked with Grout with in the early 80's.  See latest Sept 2011 issue of Golf Digest, page 36,  to see the swing I emulated.

With completely inconsistent results from one shot to the next,  I looked up the S & T method on You tube. This is probably one of the easiest swing methods to learn.  I picked up on this on the range the very first day and saw positive results immediately.  Consistent ball striking with a much more predictable ball flight direction on every shot.  My biggest complaint though is a loss of distance.  10 - 15 yards per club through the bag.  Now granted, because I'm in the fairway more often the distance loss is offset by the fact I'm faced with far easier shots from the middle of the fairway vs. out of the rough and out or under trees or anything else that comes with a poorly hit shot.

I find myself going with a S & T swing, especially on a critical shot on narrower fairways or approach shots with a narrow opening into the green.  Kudo's to the guys that came up with this.  Since this is a game about having fun first and foremost,  implying that everyone must swing a club this way or that is ridiculous.  Whatever brings the best positive results for a golfer should always be encouraged.  This swing style is certainly capable of putting most guys back into the middle of the fairway or onto the green in the least number of shots.

[carpediem4300]

The bit I have highlighted is so true, my stepdad always bangs on about me not taking him to golf as he has never played, so i took him to the range over the weekend and taught him what i knew of stack and tilt, and basically said

"This your stance, dont move your head AT ALL, put the weight on your left leg, keep a straight left arm and just swing,"

Man he hit it well, his swing was all over the place naturally but he hit some damn good straight/draw shots

Originally Posted by cart7

As someone who picked the game back up after 25 years,  I was really having problems making consistent ball strikes with woods or irons.  As someone who was formerly an 8 handicapper,  I felt like I was overpowering this new equipment with an old swing style.  Attempting to learn the newer swing styles with quieter feet and less left to right weight shift has been difficult.

My old swing style, BTW,  was very similar to Nicklaus's that Jack worked with Grout with in the early 80's.  See latest Sept 2011 issue of Golf Digest, page 36,  to see the swing I emulated.

With completely inconsistent results from one shot to the next,  I looked up the S & T method on You tube. This is probably one of the easiest swing methods to learn.  I picked up on this on the range the very first day and saw positive results immediately.  Consistent ball striking with a much more predictable ball flight direction on every shot.  My biggest complaint though is a loss of distance.  10 - 15 yards per club through the bag.  Now granted, because I'm in the fairway more often the distance loss is offset by the fact I'm faced with far easier shots from the middle of the fairway vs. out of the rough and out or under trees or anything else that comes with a poorly hit shot.

I find myself going with a S & T swing, especially on a critical shot on narrower fairways or approach shots with a narrow opening into the green.  Kudo's to the guys that came up with this.  Since this is a game about having fun first and foremost,  implying that everyone must swing a club this way or that is ridiculous.  Whatever brings the best positive results for a golfer should always be encouraged.  This swing style is certainly capable of putting most guys back into the middle of the fairway or onto the green in the least number of shots.

[Kujan]

Absolutely I agree that weight forward (and keeping it there) is key.

[jwalker497]

Originally Posted by Kujan

Absolutely I agree that weight forward (and keeping it there) is key.

Agree as well.  Keepingthe  weight fwd and rotating around it has helped me tremendously.  I don't fully understand the tilt part and have had improvements.  Also the other biggest area of improvement is how they teach how to hit draws and fades - this worked for me and I have tried several times to hit a draw with no success.  Wegith fwd and use their tips to hit a draw has eliminated the right side for me.

[1puttit]

Can someone help me with comparing some Golfing Machine terminology with Stack & Tilt?

TGM refers to two types of swings, a Hitter or a Swinger. Is Stack & Tilt more of a hitter swing or swinger?

[Stretch]

I know this isn't a satisfying answer, but it's a bit of both.

[poser]

Hitting or swinging is a good question.  When it first came out I was told it was hitting now seems that logic has changed.  Angled hinge or half roll is what they prescribe unless this has also changed and that is usually associated with hitting but, doesn't mean you have to be hitting to angle hinge

[BallStriker]

Interesting note in this month's GD from Baddeley, as he indicates that with S&T; he felt like he was stuck with only one shot shape.....

For the S&T; guys out there, is this legitimate -- can you play an effective fade/cut with the S&T; mechanics.  If so, why couldn't Bads??