The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[Zeph]

Regardless of what type of shot cone you got, a miss the wrong way will always lead to trouble. The ball can go straight, draw too much or even fade, depending on the angles at impact. If you got a predictable shot pattern where you almost never hit the ball straight or to the right, you could aim towards the trouble and hope the 1% shot doesn't come. If the tendency is to overdraw or overfade, aiming towards safety to the right with trouble to the left can be dangerous.

The idea behind the shot cone is simply to know where the ball most likely will fall down, and knowing where it will miss if you don't hit it like you intended. You will always risk hitting a hazard that you are trying to avoid, but based on experience with your shot cone, you can limit those misses.

[mattttt25]

Well, I just bought the book and am about half way through it.  I don't think it's well written, but that's for another conversation.  I do find myself buying into the method and ideas.  I haven't even picked up a club yet, but sitting and reading, I can already picture myself executing my current swing and realizing why I have so many problems.  My weight is all wrong, my shoulder turn is a mess, all leading to bad head movement.  I use to keep my hands deep, but I was told my back swing was too flat.  Instead of adjusting my wrists, I forced myself to lift my arms higher, pulling them away from my body.  Yup, another big mistake.

I really look forward to giving this a shot.

[iacas]

  CalBoomer said:

Originally Posted by CalBoomer

I try to hit my driver with a very slight upswing at contact and try to stay behind the ball--all of which is impossible with stack and tilt methodology.

It's not "impossible" at all. A little more difficult (but why do you want to "stay behind the ball?") but not impossible, no... I have more to say about this later today if I have the time (though I've said the same thing for four days now to myself).

  Stretch said:

Originally Posted by Stretch

To hit a push fade, you aim the club face where you want the ball to start, slightly left of the target, and your feet/body well to the left of that. You can then swing in-to-out and still have the face open relative to the swing path at impact, applying fade spin.

Yep. Doing anything else results in manipulation of the baseline with your body - different angles in your arms at different positions in the swing, etc.

[Zeph]

What does "staying behind the ball" mean anyways?

From the sound of it, some part of the body is staying behind. In S&T;, you obviously put emphasis on getting the hips forward. The head should preferably stay somewhat centered, at least until impact.

Only parts I can imagine staying behind is the hips or head, essentially the weight.

[RedFox999]

  Zeph said:

Originally Posted by Zeph

What does "staying behind the ball" mean anyways?

From the sound of it, some part of the body is staying behind. In S&T;, you obviously put emphasis on getting the hips forward. The head should preferably stay somewhat centered, at least until impact.

Only parts I can imagine staying behind is the hips or head, essentially the weight.

it means hitting the ball from a positive angle of attack (on the upswing). Drivers of the ball who hit the ball on the upswing for driver tend to get more distance out of drives (by 20-40 yards) from the same swing speed as someone who hit the ball with negative angle of attack according to trackman data

[Stretch]

That is true. But it's also true that the average AoA on the PGA tour is negative 1.1 degrees and those guys are definitely keen on maximum efficiency.

[RedFox999]

  Stretch said:

Originally Posted by Stretch

That is true. But it's also true that the average AoA on the PGA tour is negative 1.1 degrees and those guys are definitely keen on maximum efficiency.

not everyone does tho. trackman were comparing Tiger woods, slight negative angle of attack on driver, to (i cant remember who off the top of my head) who hits drives with a positive angle on tour. The positive angle guy hits drives 30-40 yards longer than tiger even though same Swing speed.

[saevel25]

Bubba Watson has a positive AoA

[iacas]

  RedFox999 said:

Originally Posted by RedFox999

not everyone does tho. trackman were comparing Tiger woods, slight negative angle of attack on driver, to (i cant remember who off the top of my head) who hits drives with a positive angle on tour. The positive angle guy hits drives 30-40 yards longer than tiger even though same Swing speed.

This is a big part of the subtle shift in the way we're going to teach S&T; at Golf Evolution. More tk later.

[Stretch]

  iacas said:

Originally Posted by iacas

This is a big part of the subtle shift in the way we're going to teach S&T; at Golf Evolution. More tk later.

Going to the stock pull fade? About time!

[westcyderydin]

thanks for the replies to the fade question guys.  They have it all spelled out in the book...i just found that section a touch confusing and wanted to see how it compared to how some other people were doing it.

The only other thing i wonder (before being able to test out this new method for working the ball) is if the feeling of hitting a bigger push draw and the feeling of hitting a push fade are different enough to be sure that they will not get crossed up.  both of them require a more open clubface, one just more open to the other and of course with different alignments....at least the way i am understanding it.

I just want to make sure, cuz crossing them up would mean a shot way, way offline.

oh, and i do like that trevino article...

[CalBoomer]

  westcyderydin said:

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

thanks for the replies to the fade question guys.  They have it all spelled out in the book...i just found that section a touch confusing and wanted to see how it compared to how some other people were doing it.

The only other thing i wonder (before being able to test out this new method for working the ball) is if the feeling of hitting a bigger push draw and the feeling of hitting a push fade are different enough to be sure that they will not get crossed up.  both of them require a more open clubface, one just more open to the other and of course with different alignments....at least the way i am understanding it.

I just want to make sure, cuz crossing them up would mean a shot way, way offline.

oh, and i do like that trevino article...

Yeah, Trevino, all 5ft 7in of him, does not get the respect he deserves. With no formal coaching, he won 6 majors (2 US Opens, 2 Opens, and 2 PGAs), which is one less than Mickelson and Els combined. And in 4 of those victories, the runner-up was none other than big hitter Jack Nicklaus, so he wasn't beating chumps. The fade was his bread and butter shot to such an extent that he never won a Masters, which requires being able to hit a consistent draw off the tee. Like another small man, name of Hogan, he won because of the incredible consistency of his ball flight. So his advise is worth paying attention to.

[talismand]

Just found a series of S&T; video blogs on Youtube. They seem pretty good. Here is a sample one, talking about the downswing

Anybody heard of this guy?

[Zeph]

He seems to be part of the S&T; "movement" as far as I can tell.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Not too sure on that guy to be fair. Just through that video alone I'd question the following:

• When he says he's centered or stacked, why is his left knee buckling in toward the right knee?
• "The first thing to initiate the downswing is to move the hips forward" - No explanation of extending the spine?
• "At this point in the downswing (between P5 and P6) we would have the left knee over the left ankle" - But his left knee is WAY past the left ankle.
• "As we clear the hips the upper center will move back" - Even using this as a 'don't do' I can't see that clearing the hips will make your upper center move back. Granted your approach angle will gravitate from in-to-out toward out-to-in depending on how much you 'clear' but the upper center as far as I can tell doesn't necessarily move back.
• "... and the handle of the club leading the club head allow us to hit out at the golf ball as we come through this way, which is essentially we're going to get that golf ball to draw" - Er... So presumably club face angle has nothing to do with it then? Open/Neutral/Closed club face to the path is irrelevant as long as you hit in-to-out? I think not.
• "we can see that the hips cease to move forward..." - He says as he straightens his front leg and leans backward...

Of course the comments above could just be me being picky...

[RC]

Had it been named "Stack and Blast" maybe half the questions would go away.

[sean_miller]

  RC said:

Originally Posted by RC

Had it been named "Stack and Blast" maybe half the questions would go away.

Can I call it S&TRSPE4PE;&A; so it will show up in more searches?

stack and tilt releasing stored potential energy for powerful explosion and awesomeness

[westcyderydin]

So the feeling in the takeaway should be hands in...is it really more like hands under?  maybe this is just how it feels to me now since i am changing to this from a more hands around  takeaway and swing...

and i guess this would help with the inline...more CP... release?  and would it make sense that in the adjustment period i could be coming back with the hands under but from muscle memory coming down with my hands more around?

the new release is just feeling a little funny....as today was the first day of the year on the course...

and why would i be hitting the ball way on the heel of my driver?  how far away should i stand from the ball?  should i lineup my hands under my eyes like i did with my old swing or should i just have my arms straight down?

and the other thing that feels funny is to have my hands farther forward than a totally neutral ball position... is there a correct way in the s and t system..involving the hands and shaft lean at the setup?

i know that was a lot of questions but any answers are appreciated..