The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[Stretch]

These sound like good questions for a general Stack and Tilt thread. If only we had one!

[CalBoomer]

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

So i just read the Stack and Tilt book.  I really enjoyed the way the swing is layed out in the book.  Having said that i have a couple of questions.

1)  I have heard people say that they like to aim at trouble and draw/fade the ball away from it.  but with the shot cone from the book in mind they would rather miss with less curve than with over curve.  So would i be correct to conclude that it is best to aim a touch farther away from the trouble and just hit the stock shot or start the ball away from the trouble and curve it toward the trouble?

2)  In the book it said that hitting a push fade is a more powerful way to hit a fade, and if i remember right they said it was their preferred way to hit the fade.  Does that mean it goes farther than a pull fade?  I just wonder because the face is more open for the push fade, is it not?

And then to hit a push fade do you just aim to the left of the target, open the clubface, then swing to where you are aimed?

thanks for any feedback.

Copy and paste the following link to one of the threads in this forum (5th post down):

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/43528/hitting-a-fade-with-a-varyingly-closed-stance

In that thread, I posted an old clip from Golf magazine written by Lee Trevino which is the best description of the push fade (or power fade) I have ever seen. Iacas does not like long quotes but he let that one stand. It has been very helpful to my game, especially my driving. But I only use stack and tilt principles for my irons, when I am trying to make contact with a slightly descending blow. I try to hit my driver with a very slight upswing at contact and try to stay behind the ball--all of which is impossible with stack and tilt methodology.

With regard to your question about aiming a push fade, it all depends on "what" you are aiming. As recommended by Trevino, my stance line is way open left, my shoulder line is less open left, and my club face is open to both, but almost square to the target. So my open club face is aimed square to the target, everything else variably to the left. It may sound weird but it is extremely reliable for producing a very straight ball or one that fades very slightly right.

[Stretch]

The key idea of the shot cone is that you try never to cross over the target. So, if you play a stock draw and the flag is on the left of the green with gnarly bunkers over that side -- you set up so that you are absolutely not going to miss left of the hole if you hit any normal shot in your repertoire. This likely means aiming out at the right fringe and just accepting that any kind of a push is going to be off the surface. But even then, you are chipping back with plenty of green to work with rather than short sided in the sand.

To hit a push fade, you aim the club face where you want the ball to start, slightly left of the target, and your feet/body well to the left of that. You can then swing in-to-out and still have the face open relative to the swing path at impact, applying fade spin.

[Zeph]

Regardless of what type of shot cone you got, a miss the wrong way will always lead to trouble. The ball can go straight, draw too much or even fade, depending on the angles at impact. If you got a predictable shot pattern where you almost never hit the ball straight or to the right, you could aim towards the trouble and hope the 1% shot doesn't come. If the tendency is to overdraw or overfade, aiming towards safety to the right with trouble to the left can be dangerous.

The idea behind the shot cone is simply to know where the ball most likely will fall down, and knowing where it will miss if you don't hit it like you intended. You will always risk hitting a hazard that you are trying to avoid, but based on experience with your shot cone, you can limit those misses.

[mattttt25]

Well, I just bought the book and am about half way through it.  I don't think it's well written, but that's for another conversation.  I do find myself buying into the method and ideas.  I haven't even picked up a club yet, but sitting and reading, I can already picture myself executing my current swing and realizing why I have so many problems.  My weight is all wrong, my shoulder turn is a mess, all leading to bad head movement.  I use to keep my hands deep, but I was told my back swing was too flat.  Instead of adjusting my wrists, I forced myself to lift my arms higher, pulling them away from my body.  Yup, another big mistake.

I really look forward to giving this a shot.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CalBoomer

I try to hit my driver with a very slight upswing at contact and try to stay behind the ball--all of which is impossible with stack and tilt methodology.

It's not "impossible" at all. A little more difficult (but why do you want to "stay behind the ball?") but not impossible, no... I have more to say about this later today if I have the time (though I've said the same thing for four days now to myself).

Originally Posted by Stretch

To hit a push fade, you aim the club face where you want the ball to start, slightly left of the target, and your feet/body well to the left of that. You can then swing in-to-out and still have the face open relative to the swing path at impact, applying fade spin.

Yep. Doing anything else results in manipulation of the baseline with your body - different angles in your arms at different positions in the swing, etc.

[Zeph]

What does "staying behind the ball" mean anyways?

From the sound of it, some part of the body is staying behind. In S&T, you obviously put emphasis on getting the hips forward. The head should preferably stay somewhat centered, at least until impact.

Only parts I can imagine staying behind is the hips or head, essentially the weight.

[RedFox999]

Originally Posted by Zeph

What does "staying behind the ball" mean anyways?

From the sound of it, some part of the body is staying behind. In S&T, you obviously put emphasis on getting the hips forward. The head should preferably stay somewhat centered, at least until impact.

Only parts I can imagine staying behind is the hips or head, essentially the weight.

it means hitting the ball from a positive angle of attack (on the upswing). Drivers of the ball who hit the ball on the upswing for driver tend to get more distance out of drives (by 20-40 yards) from the same swing speed as someone who hit the ball with negative angle of attack according to trackman data

[Stretch]

That is true. But it's also true that the average AoA on the PGA tour is negative 1.1 degrees and those guys are definitely keen on maximum efficiency.

[RedFox999]

Originally Posted by Stretch

That is true. But it's also true that the average AoA on the PGA tour is negative 1.1 degrees and those guys are definitely keen on maximum efficiency.

not everyone does tho. trackman were comparing Tiger woods, slight negative angle of attack on driver, to (i cant remember who off the top of my head) who hits drives with a positive angle on tour. The positive angle guy hits drives 30-40 yards longer than tiger even though same Swing speed.

[saevel25]

Bubba Watson has a positive AoA

[iacas]

Originally Posted by RedFox999

not everyone does tho. trackman were comparing Tiger woods, slight negative angle of attack on driver, to (i cant remember who off the top of my head) who hits drives with a positive angle on tour. The positive angle guy hits drives 30-40 yards longer than tiger even though same Swing speed.

This is a big part of the subtle shift in the way we're going to teach S&T at Golf Evolution. More tk later.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by iacas

This is a big part of the subtle shift in the way we're going to teach S&T at Golf Evolution. More tk later.

Going to the stock pull fade? About time!

[westcyderydin]

thanks for the replies to the fade question guys.  They have it all spelled out in the book...i just found that section a touch confusing and wanted to see how it compared to how some other people were doing it.

The only other thing i wonder (before being able to test out this new method for working the ball) is if the feeling of hitting a bigger push draw and the feeling of hitting a push fade are different enough to be sure that they will not get crossed up.  both of them require a more open clubface, one just more open to the other and of course with different alignments....at least the way i am understanding it.

I just want to make sure, cuz crossing them up would mean a shot way, way offline.

oh, and i do like that trevino article...

[CalBoomer]

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

thanks for the replies to the fade question guys.  They have it all spelled out in the book...i just found that section a touch confusing and wanted to see how it compared to how some other people were doing it.

The only other thing i wonder (before being able to test out this new method for working the ball) is if the feeling of hitting a bigger push draw and the feeling of hitting a push fade are different enough to be sure that they will not get crossed up.  both of them require a more open clubface, one just more open to the other and of course with different alignments....at least the way i am understanding it.

I just want to make sure, cuz crossing them up would mean a shot way, way offline.

oh, and i do like that trevino article...

Yeah, Trevino, all 5ft 7in of him, does not get the respect he deserves. With no formal coaching, he won 6 majors (2 US Opens, 2 Opens, and 2 PGAs), which is one less than Mickelson and Els combined. And in 4 of those victories, the runner-up was none other than big hitter Jack Nicklaus, so he wasn't beating chumps. The fade was his bread and butter shot to such an extent that he never won a Masters, which requires being able to hit a consistent draw off the tee. Like another small man, name of Hogan, he won because of the incredible consistency of his ball flight. So his advise is worth paying attention to.

[talismand]

Just found a series of S&T; video blogs on Youtube. They seem pretty good. Here is a sample one, talking about the downswing

Anybody heard of this guy?

[Zeph]

He seems to be part of the S&T "movement" as far as I can tell.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Not too sure on that guy to be fair. Just through that video alone I'd question the following:

• When he says he's centered or stacked, why is his left knee buckling in toward the right knee?
• "The first thing to initiate the downswing is to move the hips forward" - No explanation of extending the spine?
• "At this point in the downswing (between P5 and P6) we would have the left knee over the left ankle" - But his left knee is WAY past the left ankle.
• "As we clear the hips the upper center will move back" - Even using this as a 'don't do' I can't see that clearing the hips will make your upper center move back. Granted your approach angle will gravitate from in-to-out toward out-to-in depending on how much you 'clear' but the upper center as far as I can tell doesn't necessarily move back.
• "... and the handle of the club leading the club head allow us to hit out at the golf ball as we come through this way, which is essentially we're going to get that golf ball to draw" - Er... So presumably club face angle has nothing to do with it then? Open/Neutral/Closed club face to the path is irrelevant as long as you hit in-to-out? I think not.
• "we can see that the hips cease to move forward..." - He says as he straightens his front leg and leans backward...

Of course the comments above could just be me being picky...