Christians

[zeg]

I don't believe the earth is billions of years old because I use common sense. (laugh, laugh right?) Think about it, billions of years old? Really? And I would be interested to hear what you believe in how the earth and universe started? I also never stated that I believe the earth is a mere few thousands years old, but I'll say no more than twenty thousand. I have read and heard reputable folks on that issue.

Why is twenty thousand any more plausible than billions? Because it "feels" better? Accepting twenty thousand requires some pretty absurd rejections of fact, actually. It's straightforward to measure the ages of things that substantially exceed that based on the decay rates of radioactive elements. So if you want to reject those dating methods, be prepared to explain why the decay processes have changed with time. Furthermore, the ages that these methods give are in agreement with ages from other events, and the estimates we get for the age of the earth agree reasonably well with the age of the universe that we measure by astronomical means. So now you not only have to assume that the decay rates have changed, you have to explain why this has happened in a way that lines up so nicely with other independent observations. This is a common thread: the results we find from science tend to be conservative in the Occam's razor sense. The assumptions and models tend to be as simple and unadorned as is compatible with observation. When you start trying to force certain answers to agree with mythology or "feelings" about what answers should be, you wind up having to construct a much more complicated system. This is really counterproductive when we have a self-consistent system to begin with...

[JetFan1983]

This thread has delved into pure awesomeness.

[nike_golf]

there is no evidence of any ark, anywhere. there's a place called mount ararat in turkey which ''religious scientists'' take to be the final resting place of the ark. all it is is a huge boatlike rock indention in the side of a mountain. nothing more. so, you have used common sense to determine that the age of the earth is not billions of years old? at the same time, you think billions of living organisms of all shapes and sizes rode on a boat for a year and came to rest in turkey. using your common sense, can you tell me how they all got back to their respective continents? nevermind how they even got there in the first place.

Like I said earlier, I love how the atheists are the ones who get all worked up when talking of religion. They're the ones who take it personal and resort to the personal attacks, name calling, etc etc.

That's fine. Fire away. I also know I can handle being the "punching bag" on this discussion. There are many who agree w/ me and/or side w/ me on most things on this issue, but are afraid to say anything because of the ensuing attacks they open themselves up to. In response to your post. Your points are mostly mute to me. They don't mean much, nor do they say much. You can take solice in all the billions and millions and light years and rocks and carbon dating and galaxies and explosions and blah blah blah. To a person who relies on scientific "fact" to believe anything, I know that sounds absurd to you. So be it. I'm not worried about it. I'm not worried about, nor do I think about, the light years and the rocks and the universe, etc etc. I prefer guys like you talk about and worry about it. Actually, it's great. I don't worry about much. I don't worry about dying. I don't worry about the why/how of the world. I trust in what I trust in and leave it at that. Again, that probably sounds absurd to you, but so be it. I'm not worried about what you think either.

[nike_golf]

I'm a roman catholic, although studying religion at school basically put me off going to church. As a result i haven't been for about 6 months. I love the fact that science can help in finding out how and when we came to be. It really annoys me when people blindly believe anything they are told in regards to religion especially when science proves this wrong. Besides half of the old testament in the bible is total crap. A lot of those stories were told to answer the questions of the people.

You sound like a 22 year old kid. Am I close?

What has science "proven" as far as how we came to be? Science is not exact, folks. Science isn't all knowing and all powerful as some want it to be . It doesn't have all the answers or the final say on everything, by any means. No matter how badly people want that to be true.

[nike_golf]

Why is twenty thousand any more plausible than billions? Because it "feels" better? Accepting twenty thousand requires some pretty absurd rejections of fact, actually. It's straightforward to measure the ages of things that substantially exceed that based on the decay rates of radioactive elements. So if you want to reject those dating methods, be prepared to explain why the decay processes have changed with time. Furthermore, the ages that these methods give are in agreement with ages from other events, and the estimates we get for the age of the earth agree reasonably well with the age of the universe that we measure by astronomical means. So now you not only have to assume that the decay rates have changed, you have to explain why this has happened in a way that lines up so nicely with other independent observations. This is a common thread: the results we find from science tend to be conservative in the Occam's razor sense. The assumptions and models tend to be as simple and unadorned as is compatible with observation. When you start trying to force certain answers to agree with mythology or "feelings" about what answers should be, you wind up having to construct a much more complicated system. This is really counterproductive when we have a self-consistent system to begin with...

Why does a religion debate have to come down to science versus religion? Or how old the earth is? Or how we came to be? I know the atheists want to talk about that stuff because they believe scientists are all knowing. But, like I've said, it's kind of a mute issue to me. I believe and trust what I believe, and I leave it at that. Some of you think that's absurd, stupid, and crazy. So be it.

I think it's important to be nice to people, treat others as you'd like to be treated, and trust in God about life's issues. My religion helps me w/ those things. Those are the kinds of things that are important to me over how old a fish is, or how many light years something is away, etc etc.

[patriot07]

I am a Christian. Have been since I was a teenager.

I'm not sure who it was that said the Bible was written 400 years after Jesus died, but that isn't entirely true. The entire old testament was written before he was born, and most of the new testament was written within 30-40 years of his death. There are exceptions, but the vast majority falls within those time periods. Maybe that poster was referring to when the writings were compiled into what we know as the Bible?

As for the folks who don't like the label of "Christian", I'm sorry. To me, there's no difference between an atheist and a "religious person who's not a Christian". My belief is that everyone who calls themselves by those names is not going to spend eternity in paradise with Jesus. You either accept the free gift of salvation or you don't. Nothing inbetween. Obviously, it's all my $.02, but that's what I believe.

I'm very slightly surprised by the percentage of Christians/non-Christians, but it's not too far off what I would've expected.

Also, nike_golf is right about one thing: Science isn't all-knowing. Let's not pretend it is. For those of you who want tangible evidence regarding Biblical subjects, there are a ton of books about it. But the Lee Strobel series "A Case for Christ/A Savior/A Creator" is pretty good and very informative.

[danieldrieberg]

I am a Christian however it the world of Christian I would be classified a a liberal thought Christian. ACLS Lutheran. Anyway the science of evolution, aging of the Earth etc does not upset my view of Christian belief systems. In fact it actually enhances my belief.




I hold to a Statement one of the past Secretaries of State made." Absolute faith absolutely blinds that individual." The "guiding/ blinding light of absolute certainty creates very dangerous individuals whether they be Christian,Muslim or other. Their actions are then DIVINE inspired therefore "just". Dangerous indeed.

For me mortal Faith requires a germ of doubt. Otherwise I am not only made in the image of GOD but also sit at His Table as an all knowing Equal. That's enough to get me thrown out of the Garden!!!!!!

[danieldrieberg]

I am a Christian however in the world of Christianity I would be classified a a liberal thought Christian. ACLS Lutheran. Anyway the science of evolution, aging of the Earth etc does not upset my view of Christian belief system. In fact it actually enhances my belief!!

I hold to a statement one of the past Secretaries of State made." Absolute faith absolutely blinds." The "guiding/ blinding light of "absolute certainty" creates very dangerous individuals whether they are Christian,Muslim or other. Their actions are necessarily DIVINE Inspired therefore "JUST". Dangerous indeed.

For me mortal Faith requires a germ of doubt. Otherwise I am not only made in the image of GOD but also sit at His Table as an All Knowing Equal. That's enough to get me thrown out of the Garden!!!!!!

[iacas]

There are many who agree w/ me and/or side w/ me on most things on this issue, but are afraid to say anything because of the ensuing attacks they open themselves up to.

Agreement is not proof. Facts are proof, and the facts are heavily against "the earth is 20,000 years old."

Why does a religion debate have to come down to science versus religion?

Because a big part of religion is faith in the absence of fact, not faith

in spite of fact . That's just willful ignorance. So if you "believe" something that's patently false, you're not doing yourself - or other people who share your general belief structure (without disagreeing on the things which are fact) - any good.

[nike_golf]

I am a Christian. Have been since I was a teenager.

I was wondering where guys like you were.

You are very right about the "label" issue as well. Lutheran, Catholic, Christian, etc etc are really terms we as people use for our reasons. What's important is that you believe that He gave His life so that we can be saved. Everything else is pretty minor in detail.

[iacas]

To me, there's no difference between an atheist and a "religious person who's not a Christian". My belief is that everyone who calls themselves by those names is not going to spend eternity in paradise with Jesus. You either accept the free gift of salvation or you don't.

That touches on one of my own biggest "problems" with Christianity or the "god" that Christianity puts forth.

I just can't get behind a god that would punish someone with eternal damnation (or at least "not spending eternity in paradise with Jesus") simply because they never even had the opportunity to hear of Christianity due to where they live, the people around them, or perhaps even the age at which they die (a five-year old whose parents aren't particularly religious, for example), or other factors. Those people didn't make a "choice" not to be Christian, and yet they're punished. I also have a problem with some mass rapist-murderer accepting Christ in jail accepting Christ and going to heaven while someone who lives a good, honorable, decent life but simply doesn't happen to believe in the principles of Christianity is sent to the land of fire and brimstone (or whatever). I simply can't believe in a god or a system that punishes people for luck, punishes people who lead good lives while rewarding others who didn't lead good lives, and so on. I can't believe in a god who would punish someone for trying to seek out the truth, as I consider myself to be - seeking out the truth. I'm a scientist - always have been, really - and spirituality and science aren't mutually exclusive. You can be a Christian and accept the fact that evolution is a proven fact, that species evolve. I think there's something more out there, but it strikes me as wrong to the core that any god, if he/she/it exists, would punish people for trying to seek the truth or because they had bad luck, non-Christian parents, etc. And that wraps up my final post in this thread. I haven't read more than four or five posts in this thread, so... just please be civil to each other (as y'all seem to be doing). Be good to people.

[senorchipotle]

Like I said earlier, I love how the atheists are the ones who get all worked up when talking of religion. They're the ones who take it personal and resort to the personal attacks, name calling, etc etc.

The only reason why disbelievers in christianity get upset is because the avg. christian attitude towards us is like we are somehow different. you treat us as if we're lacking some secret knowledge that only christians have. and while you say you don't feel superior to a non-believer, you may actually believe it, but subconsciously, you cannot help but feel ''sorry'' for us because you think we're going to hell. and all the stuff about how it's a mistake we haven't accepted jesus doesn't help your cause.

as far as name calling goes, i never once called you a name. i said you were dishonest and foolish, which is true of those who refuse to accept reality because it displeases them. if i were to deny that the earth is round with all the evidence that it is, you'd have every right to call me the same thing. such is the case with evolution and the age of the earth. creationists talk about science as if it's some large entity with a singular mind to wipe out all religion. this is utterly not the case. the most respected american biological scientist is a christian. he successfully linked humans and chimps together using dna specimens. it's not debatable. it happened. for the life of me i cannot understand why some people cannot accept that. the fact that you address none of my points proves to me that no matter what anyone says to you, you'll be doing your best ostrich impression(head in the sand) until you accept that there are things outside of your comfort area of fundamental religion that you should find out about. i apologize if you felt i disrespected you in any way, for i did not mean to. the way i see it, people deserve respect, religion doesn't. religion, specifically fundamentalism, limits the progress of humanity. but hey, what do i know?

[nike_golf]

That touches on one of my own biggest "problems" with Christianity or the "god" that Christianity puts forth.

Interesting points. What I say to a good portion of that is that WE DON'T KNOW a lot of God and who is saved and who isn't. What happens to people that never knew about Christianity? Honestly, I don't know and I don't even want to guess. What happens to the 5 year old who was never taught of Jesus? Well, I have a hard time believing she wouldn't be saved because she was in a situation to where she had no chance to know about Jesus.

That reminds me of a miraculous story. There was even a song written about it. It was about a young girl, about 5 years old or so. She wasn't taught anything about Jesus. Her parents had problems, to say the least. Well, one day, her dad came home drunk and angry. This litlte girl proceeded to hide behind the couch while her dad shot and killed her mom and then himself. A little while later she was adopted. Her first day of Sunday School she recognized a picture of a man. She proceeded to tell the teacher that the man in the picture on the wall was w/ her the behind the couch the night her parents died. That man in the picture was of course, Jesus.

[nike_golf]

The only reason why disbelievers in christianity get upset is because the avg. christian attitude towards us is like we are somehow different. you treat us as if we're lacking some secret knowledge that only christians have. and while you say you don't feel superior to a non-believer, you may actually believe it, but subconsciously, you cannot help but feel ''sorry'' for us because you think we're going to hell. and all the stuff about how it's a mistake we haven't accepted jesus doesn't help your cause.

Like I said, I don't worry about your points or what your telling me on some of those issues. Honestly, I don't really care.

I think you, and others like you, have more of a problem w/ fundamentalists than the average Joe Christian, such as me. I've already stated you can believe what you want. I don't really care. You're not my family, so if you choose to be a satan worshiper, more power to you. I agree that individuals deserve respect no matter what they believe. In day to day functions, what you believe in or don't is none of my business and it's not something I think about at all. I did state that I believe you are making a big mistake by not believing, but thats because we are talking about it in this forum. I don't go around at a bar or restaurant or sporting event and talk religion. In fact, it's one of the last things I want to talk about. I shared a personal feeling about what I believe about atheists. But, like I said, I don't go around saying stuff like that. It's just what I believe. I didn't take offense to anything you said, but it's just that everytime I have seen discussions like this, its the atheists that get all riled up and take it so personally. My main and simple point is that there is so much we don't know about SO MUCH regarding the world, the age, the universe, etc etc. I know it sounds like a convenient answer to dodge some tough questions, but it's true. I can respect the work of scientists on their analysis on things, but I don't have to believe it. Anyway, I hate debating that anyway. No one is getting anywhere by arguing, in essence, theories.

[Shanks A Million]

I just can't get behind a god that would punish someone with eternal damnation (or at least "not spending eternity in paradise with Jesus") simply because they never even had the opportunity to hear of Christianity due to where they live, the people around them, or perhaps even the age at which they die (a five-year old whose parents aren't particularly religious, for example), or other factors. Those people didn't make a "choice" not to be Christian, and yet they're punished.

I'm amazed how similar our beliefs are!

Because a big part of religion is faith in the absence of fact, not faith in spite of fact .

This ^

This is, by far, the most pertinent statement on this whole thread. I believe wholly in science, but that in no way affects belief in god. The earth is billions of years old, the universe, immeasurable, and that only further shows the absolute, amazing wonder that is god. The problem is, a group got together and decided that a book with stories would be published to try to explain it. This book was taken as undoubted fact by the people who read it, a major mistake. For example, Noah's ark. This one exists in several different religions, Christian, Greek, Sumerian, and a few others. It's based on a real event that occurred where a massive flood destroyed a large part of Sumeria, but a small group of people survived by using their boat, or perhaps evacuating to higher ground. This story is almost certainly true, and makes perfect sense. The story shows that if the earth begins to flood, don't be a fool, take action. To add some flavor, the bible talks about animals 2 by 2, and rain for 40 days, certainly a lot more entertaining than, "there was a flood, and a guy on a boat lived." The problem is, the modern Christian religion has become so attached to the idea that the earth is 6,000 years old, and that the whole bible is literal, when science has proven that that's flat out wrong. But it's that which science cannot explain that we have faith in, the soul, god, creation, etc. The world is an awful lonely place without faith, but it's even worse when you have blind faith. Blind faith starts wars. True faith has never, and will never, start a war; no one who has true faith would ever believe that others should agree with them, because their belief is strong enough on its own.

[zeg]

This is, by far, the most pertinent statement on this whole thread. I believe wholly in science, but that in no way affects belief in god. The earth is billions of years old, the universe, immeasurable, and that only further shows the absolute, amazing wonder that is god.

I almost posted a very similar thought. There's no direct conflict between science and belief in God. The conflict comes when "facts" from the mythology disagree with observations.

The problem is, a group got together and decided that a book with stories would be published to try to explain it. This book was taken as

I don't recall the examples off hand, but apparently large chunks of the Old Testament are retellings of stories that appear in other religions and cultures. My wife took a couse that studied the Bible as a literary work and they discussed this quite a bit.

The problem is, the modern Christian religion has become so attached to the idea that the earth is 6,000 years old, and that the whole bible is literal, when science has proven that that's flat out wrong. But it's that which science

I don't think it's fair to ascribe Biblical literalism to all modern Christians. From my experience it seems to be a relatively small but vocal minority who hold that belief. Also, I don't think you meant to single out Christianity for the war bit, but it's important to note that "faith" in the sense of rigid adherence to dogma can lead to violence and wars, whether it arises from a religion (and many religions are "guilty" of this) or from secular sources.

[Shanks A Million]

I almost posted a very similar thought. There's no direct conflict between science and belief in God. The conflict comes when "facts" from the mythology disagree with observations.

Glad to hear that.

I don't think it's fair to ascribe Biblical literalism to all modern Christians. From my experience it seems to be a relatively small but vocal minority who hold that belief. Also, I don't think you meant to single out Christianity for the war bit, but it's important to note that "faith" in the sense of rigid adherence to dogma can lead to violence and wars, whether it arises from a religion (and many religions are "guilty" of this) or from secular sources.

No, it's not fair, but to be more clear, I was targeting the very strictest Christian sects. And the wars part refered to ultra-strict religious groups, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, etc.

[Shorty]

I know the atheists want to talk about that stuff because they believe scientists are all knowing. But, like I've said, it's kind of a mute issue to me. I believe and trust what I believe, and I leave it at that. Some of you think that's absurd, stupid, and crazy. So be it.

I think the term you are looking for is "moot", not "mute.

I was trying hard to leave tis issue alone, but your passive aggressive stance has got the better of me. You attempt to trivialise proven fact by using dismissive terms like "blah blah blah" and "rocks and stuff" as if these mundane things could not be taken seriously in an argument about why people believe in things that have no basis in fact. There are no scientists of any reputr who believe in creation. There are no scientist of any reputre who dismis evolution. There are no scientists of any repute who belive in Noah's ark etc. etc. At your church I am sure that there are hundreds of folk wh will refer to evolution as "just a theory", and you choose to side with them. You think that it is "common sense" to disbelieve in an earth more than thousands of years old. Go and have a close like at some sedimentary rock formations in a mountain range where the strata are vertical. To you that's just some dumb rocks - a non believer trying to blind you with boring "theory". You also appear to take the view that someone who doesn't believe in God or heaven is most probably a "Satanist". You accuse non-believers as being terrified of death. Why? You are the one who seems to believe that you are going to "Paradise". You can believe in whatever claptrap you want to believe in, but don't pretend that it is an alternative to evidence based science. To me, the saddest thing is not the fact that people like you are as ignorant as you appear to be, but people like you actually work in schools and try to influence children, some of whom grow up not thinking for themselves and perpetuating your superstitious nonsense. To you, the arguments are "mute", because you are incapable of speaking any sense on the issue. I challenge you to name one scientist who is not a religious crank who rejects the theory of evolutiuon or one who believes that the earth is not many millions of years old. Now - when you're done with this thread, you can go back to your church and tut tut and tsk tsk to your friends there about how these aggressive guys on the golf forum just want to talk about rocks and light years and fish and stuff rather than believing in the irrefutable and abundant evidence of a man being raised form the dead and you going to Paradise. The irritation that your passive aggression inspires is founded on the basis of the fact that people can not belive that in the year 2010 there are people who believe in moronoc and idiotic nonsense. Provide us with evidence. Don't just say. "Look at a flower".