Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA (With 2017 Data!

[Plox]

You'll not hear a peep out of them when Cory Pavin hits a tee shot.

Why is this even being discussed? Of course you won't hear it mentioned, because it's not worth noting; if a footballer makes a square pass, do the commentators rave over that? Same principle, i.e. Phil and those other guys are hitting

extraordinary drives, so of course they will be concentrated on. I'm not sure if you're being selective as well though, because many a time I've heard commentators mention poor drives that were either mishit, or just highlight the fact that someone is short.

[Plox]

Oh, and another thing; Phil Mick was consistently longer than Dustin Johnson last week, so I'm not sure why the commentators kept saying Dustin was the longest player on the course.

As for watching the LPGA tour, I can't stand it. So few players have the ability to really crunch the ball, and so many shots are mishit compared to the men's tour. Just being totally honest, it's awful to watch.

[The Recreational Golfer]

I think the math is wrong on the pga driver & 3 wood smash factor but nevertheless it's interesting to see the LPGA...absolutley possibe to have a+ hndp w/ a low 90 driver club head speed. ha ha there is hope!!

I watch the gals every year at the Safeway Classic in Portland. They do it by hitting it straight, straight, and then straight, and by knowing how to hit their irons pin high. Their short game and putting ain't too bad, either.

[deronsizemore]

Why is this even being discussed? Of course you won't hear it mentioned, because it's not worth noting; if a footballer makes a square pass, do the commentators rave over that? Same principle, i.e. Phil and those other guys are hitting

It's being discussed because this is a golf forum where we discuss golf and because of this post:

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...l=1#post480807 The point I and others were trying to get across is that the announcers sometimes like to exaggerate distances on the air. The TrackMan data clearly shows that the average PGA Tour driver carry isn't 290 like they'd like you to believe it is as there's only a handful of guys out there who can carry the ball that far.

[Shorty]

Once again we have a thread about professional golfers' statistics and it is interpreted by many as evidence that they (the forum members) are actually almost as good as a pro, but a few technical issues such as thirty shots a round difference in scoring are conveniently ignored as "details".
The stats prove that great scores can be produced with lowish swing speeds (LPGA), not that a swing speed or angle of attack that matches a pro's makes you equal to one.
Having stats that conform to a point midway between PGA and LPGA averages is meaningless. And - trying to modify one of your stats (as if you have access to all of this data for your own swing) to match a column in the table does not mean that you hit the ball like a pro.

Regarding distances, you will note that these are CARRY distances, not distances which include roll on concrete like fairways. The only significant number when you are talking about driving distance is carry, so those who are talking about drives including roll are missing the point.

I think that the greatest lesson that can be gleaned from the tables is that the average male person would do better to try to emulate an LPGA swing than a PGA one. Distance is not everything. Accuracy is king. But of course, if you swing easier you'll hit it further anyway, which we all know.

[Sing Golfer]

Do you mean the data implies that the loft of the club is 11º or higher? Static and dynamic loft, and vertical launch are different things.

Yes that is what i mean.

The vertical launch for all the clubs (except the driver) is significantly lower than the loft of the club, much of which is to do with the negative angle of attack. With a vertical launch greater than the loft of the driver it implies a upward angle of attack. anytime i have been on a launch monitor this is one of the key elements. if 14 degrees vertical launch is optimal for a particular clubhead speed then there are 2 ways of getting there. add more loft or hitting it with a positive angle of attack (obviously there are implications for spin rate with each one). I simple don't see how you can an 11 degree vertical launch with a 9 degree driver (assuming about average) with a negative angle of attack. I think it is probably a typo and should be positive angle of attack for the driver.

[Shanks A Million]

Yes that is what i mean.

Not exactly. Dynamic loft is different. The driver is a totally different club then the others in the bag. The number on a driver is meaningless. The driver face has bulge and roll to it. The loft on a 9° driver may be from 7° to 11° depending where you hit it.

What's more, it's meant to be struck high on the face, much higher than the center of gravity, and the shaft kick also comes into play. Drivers have generally more shaft kick than other clubs. All these things come together to launch the ball higher than it would with other clubs.

[Plox]

It's being discussed because this is a golf forum where we discuss golf

Thanks, captain obvious.

The point I and others were trying to get across is that the announcers sometimes like to exaggerate distances on the air. The TrackMan data clearly shows that the average PGA Tour driver carry isn't 290 like they'd like you to believe it is as there's only a handful of guys out there who can carry the ball that far.

I'm sorry, but if a person like Corey Pavin carries the ball say 260 yards, then of course there would have to be players who carry it around 290 to compensate for that average. Off the top of my head, I can think of about 15-20 players who easily satisfy that criteria, and I'm sure there are many 'lesser' players on tour who hit it just as far. There isn't some fake driving distance conspiracy, a lot of the pros really do hit it that far, as displayed when bunkers are often taken out of play that measure around that distance from the tee. And who are "they", anyway?

[Sing Golfer]

Not exactly. Dynamic loft is different. The driver is a totally different club then the others in the bag. The number on a driver is meaningless. The driver face has bulge and roll to it. The loft on a 9° driver may be from 7° to 11° depending where you hit it.

Ok, thanks. I've read a bit more and its a pretty complex set of calculations and correlations.

The more I have read though the more I realise that average data for the PGA Tour is pointless when you have outliers like Watson and Pavin in the data set. Can we get an individual breakdown? The European Tour has data on each player - for driver only though.

[Shanks A Million]

I'm sorry, but if a person like Corey Pavin carries the ball say 260 yards, then of course there would have to be players who carry it around 290 to compensate for that average. Off the top of my head, I can think of about 15-20 players who easily satisfy that criteria, and I'm sure there are many 'lesser' players on tour who hit it just as far. There isn't some fake driving distance conspiracy, a lot of the pros really do hit it that far, as displayed when bunkers are often taken out of play that measure around that distance from the tee. And who are "they", anyway?

Who the hell said he carries it 260? His average driving carry is 235.5, with an average clubhead speed of 102.1 and a 1.482 smash factor. Longest average carry on tour is Dustin Johnson at 296.3, with an average clubhead speed of 121.24 and a 1.483 smash factor.

[motteler621]

i dont understand how these guys get swing speeds so fast. 121 is fast, I would literally have to be swinging out of my shoes to reach that.

which leads me to my question, how do guys get faster swing speeds, if supposidly weight lifting doesnt help? It almost seems weight lifting and stretching would be the only thing

[Sing Golfer]

The get it with a balanced and most importantly, a syncronized swing. This month's Golf Digest has Harmon, Haney etc talking about this very topic.

[Zeph]

i dont understand how these guys get swing speeds so fast. 121 is fast, I would literally have to be swinging out of my shoes to reach that.

Swing speed is the club head speed. The more lag and more you hold onto the flying wedge, the faster the club will be released through impact. It is first and foremost about technique, not power.

[deronsizemore]

Thanks, captain obvious.

You're welcome. I thought you could use some help.

I'm sorry, but if a person like Corey Pavin carries the ball say 260 yards, then of course there would have to be players who carry it around 290 to compensate for that average. Off the top of my head, I can think of about 15-20 players who easily satisfy that criteria, and I'm sure there are many 'lesser' players on tour who hit it just as far. There isn't some fake driving distance conspiracy, a lot of the pros really do hit it that far, as displayed when bunkers are often taken out of play that measure around that distance from the tee. And who are "they", anyway?

Cory doesn't carry the ball 260. Please name the 15-20 players off the top of your head that carry the ball 290 yards. I don't remember saying there is a fake driving conspiracy; just that TV commontators like to build up the distances a lot on TV to sound good for those hackers at home. If you look at the top 50 in driving distance on the PGA Tour, the 50th place has an average drive of 288 and the first has an average drive of 305. The avearge driving distance on tour is calculated by taking the carry + roll and it's done on two holes per round (usually par fives) and done on holes facing opposite directions to counter act the effect of wind.

Like I said, there are only a handful of guys on tour who routinely carry the ball 290+. The rest are in the 250-270 range which the TrackMan data suggests, after that the rest is roll which they get a lot of on Tour with the way their courses are setup. A good example of this is this is yesterday. Scott Verplank hit a drive that ended up 320 yards according to the TV. Verplank is always one of the shorter hitters on tour and there's no way he hit the ball that far, which shows that roll has a big part in it. Don't misunderstand, the guys on Tour are very good and hit the ball a long way. I've seen them play numerous times in person and it's mesmerizing; so I'm not trying to take anything away from them at all. But to say that a lot of guys carry the ball 290+ is inaccurate. To carry it that far requires a 120ish clubhead speed and most of the guys on tour don't have that in their bag.

[colin007]

the roll these guys get is phenomenal, which says a lot not just about the fairways they play on but more importantly how well they have been fitted for their drivers. their drives come down on an optimal angle for roll. they (for the most part) dont carry it near as far as some here are claiming.

[Plox]

Off the top of my head, when, for example, a bunker needs to be carried around that distance: Phil Mick, Tiger (moreso Butch era), Dustin Johnson, Adam Scott (really, if he's on form he's very long), Bubba Watson, Angel Cabrera, J B Holmes, John Daly, Fred Couples (seriously, his driving was phenomenal at the masters), Anthony Kim, Paul Casey, Nick Watney, Brandt Jobe...

All guys I'd fancy to, when required, carry the ball 290

[sean_miller]

Off the top of my head, when, for example, a bunker needs to be carried around that distance: Phil Mick, Tiger (moreso Butch era), Dustin Johnson, Adam Scott (really, if he's on form he's very long), Bubba Watson, Angel Cabrera, J B Holmes, John Daly, Fred Couples (seriously, his driving was phenomenal at the masters), Anthony Kim, Paul Casey, Nick Watney, Brandt Jobe...

You'd fancy to what? Huh?

I think a lot of guys on this forum (and in general) could do themselves a favour by emulating the women's game rather than worry about how far JB et al hit the ball.

[Deryck Griffith]

the roll these guys get is phenomenal, which says a lot not just about the fairways they play on

That is the truth. During the memorial tournament a couple of weeks ago, the fairways were soaked and the players weren't getting any roll whatsoever. Because of this, the most interesting stat was driving distance - it was only around 260-265 (obviously that is mostly carry due to no roll) during the first two days and only got up to 271 yards (tournament average) at the end of the tournament after the players got a bit more roll on their drives on Sunday.