Harrassed by Driving Range Staff

[USA 79S]

Tell the truth.... you were doing the "chubs" and had your hands on his hips, huh...huh?. It's all in the hips baby.

Seriously, as a new guy I have had a few folks offer on the spot observations/advice. I'd feel very offended if a pro came running out telling me I can't get said advice and he is the only guy who can give lessons. I mean if you see a newb struggling with an obvious error, is it really a terrible thing to point this out to him, assuming of course he takes the constructive criticism well. "Teaching" for pay I understand, but I also believe there will always be the grey area when it comes to close friends/family and the occasional range advice.

[misty_mountainhop]

...During this time, along comes mister PGA professional driving range staff and rudely confronts me asking if I can't see the signs all over the place...

Guy sounds like a real bonehead. I'm not sure I've ever been on a range with this policy but one of the problems the OP seems to have had is how the Hell would he know there was such a policy? Absorb the information from the Ether? It appears that any signage is inadequate and/or missing. Perhaps the Pro needs to make sure they get this in place properly before he comes over all alpha-male and drives (more) custom away.

[iacas]

I'm not sure I've ever been on a range with this policy but one of the problems the OP seems to have had is how the Hell would he know there was such a policy? Absorb the information from the Ether?

Why does everyone keep saying that?

It's always seemed to me that it's one of the unwritten yet widely understood rules. You can "teach" immediate family, you can "teach" anyone away from the course (duh), and you can "teach" anyone at a course/range where there's no pro. But if there's a pro there, and you don't know him, the assumption is that it's his tee for lessons. Maybe that's an older "unwritten" rule that many have never been made aware of, but it's always made sense to me and I've always abided by it.

[anthony]

Wow, I've never heard of that in my life. If you paid your 5 bucks for a bucket, that seems like it should be as far as the range should be concerned. Another reason for me to appreciate my range.

[Shindig]

It's always seemed to me that it's one of the unwritten yet widely understood rules. You can "teach" immediate family, you can "teach" anyone away from the course (duh), and you can "teach" anyone at a course/range where there's no pro.

I'm surprised no one has said the following yet, either: the above rule is fantastic to cite when people give you unwanted advice. "Sorry, man, I don't want to piss off the pro." Despite how this thread is looking, this is generally a very useful one to know.

[shaun]

Wrong.

The answer in any particular instance will obviously depend upon the wording of the sign. If the sign forbids giving "lessons", though, I reckon you'd be able to argue that a lesson requires payment of some kind. The signs are there to protect the teaching pros' businesses. Despite what you say, Butch, I find it hard to believe that teaching pros would feel that their businesses are threatened in any way by some five (or two) handicapper showing a newbie mate the ropes free of charge. If they are threatened by that kind of thing or if their main competition comprises two-handicappers teaching their mates, the enforcement of the rule might be the least of their problems.

[kafka01]

The only case i heard of such a rule, was between pro´s - if someone is teaching at one range and pays for it - you cant just show up with your pro and get lessons from another pro not belonging to the range. That rule seems to be respected between club professionals.

I´ve had good players looking at my swing quite frequently right in front of the club pros - i showed some beginners basic stuff if i would knew them and they had questions. Something like OP mentioned never happend. Its quite obvious to me, why - you dont really think i would ever take a lesson again from this guy.

So i absolutly cant understand, what intentions the pro had, when he approached you - what did he think would happen? That you pal opened up his wallet and bought 10 lessons off of him? Hardly - maybe in the future without this incident, but i assume this will never happend after he occurence.

And yes - it might be some form of etiquette/rule in some areas - but if you think about it, trying to enforce it as the local pro, is not really the smartest thing to get yourself new customers.

[zeg]

Why does everyone keep saying that?

I'd never thought about it, and if the course near me didn't have the signs, I'd have been as entirely dumbfounded as many here. It's just not something that's universally known. Perhaps it's better known at private clubs or at higher-end clubs, I don't know. But again, there's a big difference between a "lesson" and helping your friend while you're both practicing.

I understand the motivation to prevent other would-be pros from setting up shop. I don't understand how it's in anybody's interest to create an environment where you've got to worry about being too helpful or the sanctioned pro is going to come throw a hissy fit. It seems to me that unless it's extremely egregious, there shouldn't be a problem. So sure, don't set up the launch monitor and video equipment and study your pal's swing on the range, but you shouldn't have to worry that if you're too helpful someone's going to get their panties in a bunch.

[misty_mountainhop]

...It's always seemed to me that it's one of the

That's the problem. It's unwritten and not understood. At least if it was obvious a) you'd be aware of it and might abide by it and b) could make an informed choice to go elsewhere. In any case, well intentioned though it may be, it's pretty much unenforceable without annoying people who've paid good money to hit balls; it's far too grey an area.

[shades9323]

A "lesson" is defined as,

dictionary.com: something from which a person learns or should learn

meriamwebster: a piece of instruction

Money does not have to exchange hands for someone to have a "lesson".

[iacas]

The answer in any particular instance will obviously depend upon the wording of the sign. If the sign forbids giving "lessons", though, I reckon you'd be able to argue that a lesson requires payment of some kind.

Oops, was going to respond, but was beaten to it:

Money does not have to exchange hands for someone to have a "lesson".

Look, you guys keep getting your panties in a twist. Again, odds are the guy probably could have handled it better, you bet. But don't expect to be able to go to a range where there's a pro or a staff of pros and give anything resembling a "lesson." Maybe this is the thread that teaches you that. It's disrespectful and, quite likely in the end, not good for your friend - send him to a pro you like.

P.S. Quick tips or "take a look at this" are fine. Heck, even video taping someone's swing for them so they can look at it themselves is fine. But there's a line between "hey take a quick look at this" and some guy abandoning his own pile of balls and spending a good amount of time helping another.

[shaun]

A "lesson" is defined as,

Ha ha. Yes, guys, I have a dictionary too. My main point was the first sentence: it all depends on the wording of the sign. I wasn't attempting to provide a complete definition of "lesson". If the sign referred only to "lessons" and you (or a court) were trying to decide whether a "lesson" had been given in any particular instance, I think you would have to go beyond the dictionary definition. Context is important. The dictionary definition of a "lesson" as a "piece of instruction" is insufficient if offering a few "quick tips" is okay; arguably, that would be a "lesson" according to the dictionary. In the end, you'd consider a range of factors, including the nature and extent of the teaching, the expertise and qualifications of the "teacher", the nature of the relationship between the "teacher" and the "student", and (I think) whether the "teacher" received any reward for the teaching.

Not all of these things would be relevant in any given instance. For example, if I'd left my stall and was offering specific advice to another golfer for half an hour, I'd probably be giving a "lesson", regardless of whether I was being paid. Equally, however, I'd be giving a "lesson" if I was being paid for advice that comprised only a few quick tips given over a couple of minutes.

[MikeLowry5]

It is clear that you did not violate the "spirit" of the rule which was most likely meant to keep teaching pros from bringing students to a facility and getting paid while not paying their stall/hrly/whatever fee to teach there.

What you did IS no different than a father giving his son advice. And IT IS relavant to bring up other possible situations that involve family even though he was not family.

If others were around you might have felt embarassed that someone reprimanded you like that for no apparent reason, you deserved the apology.

The way you were approached the pro implied that you were taking money out of his pocket, it was clearly not the case. In fact, he theoretically took money out of his own pocket by acting the way he did.

This reminds me how thankful I am of the range I frequent and of all the numerous good people there are in golf and throughout life. It is not very nice however it is open till 9PM when it's 20 degrees in January, till the last person leaves in the summer and the owner while a cocky older gentleman, will help you with anything you want if you buy buckets of balls from him. Any advice I need whether it be course management, swing tips, putting, etc he will offer up as long as you ask/frequent his range.

In a situation like this you should reflect back on all of the people you may have took their kindness/generousity for granted and thank them!

[IcemanYVR]

wow... this thread took off, even after I posted that the matter had been resolved between the Director of Golf and myself.

I guess the "pro's" attitude cost his facility and the other professionals who teach there some money... my friend went to the driving range 3 more times (different one) and today booked a 3 month lesson program with range and twilight golf priveleges for almost $1000.

[cmay119]

wow... this thread took off, even after I posted that the matter had been resolved between the Director of Golf and myself.

May we inquire the specifics of the resolution? :D

[IcemanYVR]

May we inquire the specifics of the resolution? :D

It was updated way back on

Page 5 of this thread. The apology was nice, but they have nothing to offer me that I can't find somewhere else. We just went there first because they had a decent facility and a number of teaching professionals.

[cmay119]

Ahhh okay. Yeah, sounded like kind of a cookie-cutter apology. Probably best to just move on like you're doing. :)

[Zeph]

I see the issue, and that a pro don't want people teaching others on his driving range. At the same time, the entry bar to golf is set very high, unfortunately. Starting with a new hobby by taking $100 lessons is not something everyone take too lightly. For beginners, I don't see the problem in a friend teaching the basics to help get the guy started, when the option could be he never started playing golf.

There is a difference between scheduled lessons, where one guy spends hours to work on someone else, and giving a shorter lesson, explaining the basics of the swing. I don't like how the pro handled the situation, something like that would definitely not make me want to take lessons from him. Swing knowledge is one thing, having an instructor that acts like that is not cool.
The course staff should do what they can to help recruit new members. If that is helped by letting one of the members help out a beginner to get him started, then so be it.