Stack and Tilt IS TRADITIONAL

[Harmonious]

Having been a lurker here for quite awhile before finally registering, I have been really put off by the bashing of every teaching pro that doesn't espouse the S&T; philosophies. I understand that this site is run by S&T; instructors but come on. There are great teachers out there who have or have had success coaching players at the highest level (yes, higher level than Charlie Wi and Eric Axley). Their methods are not garbage, they are not idiots, they do know what they are talking about. If S&T; is the greatest thing out there, it should be able to be marketed positively, not by slinging mud at everyone else. Leave that forthe November elections.

[TempoIsKey]

Well, this thread has intrigued me enough to purchase a copy of "The Stack and Tilt Swing" on fleabay for 12 bucks. I've never been acused of being closed minded.

[iacas]

Having been a lurker here for quite awhile before finally registering, I have been really put off by the bashing of every teaching pro that doesn't espouse the S&T; philosophies. I understand that this site is run by S&T; instructors but come on. There are great teachers out there who have or have had success coaching players at the highest level (yes, higher level than Charlie Wi and Eric Axley). Their methods are not garbage, they are not idiots, they do know what they are talking about. If S&T; is the greatest thing out there, it should be able to be marketed positively, not by slinging mud at everyone else. Leave that forthe November elections.

I'd agree with your opinion if it was accurate... But I don't recall bashing any instructors as a whole. I always criticize a specific thing - their understanding of the ball flight laws, how the shoulders turn in a circle, whether you need to "release" to hit a draw, etc. Don't confuse quality of instruction with quality of player - you would instantly be "the greatest coach in the world" if you worked with Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson. The Tour stable that Mike and Andy have likely wouldn't be on the PGA Tour without them, yet their players are out there winning tournaments and keeping their PGA Tour cards. How much has Tiger Woods improved (not that he had a ton of headroom)?

Update: Teaching PGA Tour players and teaching the average golfer are two different animals.

[saevel25]

I have gotten Jim McLean's book, the 3rd edition of his eight steps, and he stated alot of things S&T; does. He specifically mentioned that swing path does not dictate were the ball goes unless the clubhead is perpendicular to it. I was a bit shocked to see him stating such facts. I am wondering if his older editions said the same thing since he first published his book in 1994.

True, talent has alot to do with the success of many players and then the reputation there coaches get. But i do have to say, Phil's swing looks a ton better under Harmon than it did before.

But tiger is just a monster, the amount he is loosing the ball left and right and he's able to shoot under par at Memorial. If any of us took that there, we would be toast.

[alf174]

I'm too old to give a hoot about popular opinion; if it works run with it. That being said I've borrowed a few key points from what I've read about S&T;, implemented it (correctly?), and I'm happy with the results: minimized the slice, increased distance & improved accuracy.

[Deryck Griffith]

The biggest issue with Stack and Tilt is that it's called, Stack and Tilt. Without the labeling of the name, it would be historically, the most revolutionary teaching approach to the golf swing. Lose the name, and you lose the negative connotation towards it.

Unfortunately, labels appeal to two groups. Ones who support it 100% and others who do not support it 100%. And out of two groups, people drastically swing from one end to the other. I'm proud to say that I am part of the group who support S&T; 100% and when I read these types of posts and replies over and over again, I realize more and more that the biggest mistake Mike and Andy made was calling their teaching method, Stack and Tilt. They are married to the label and will never be able to get away from it, which, is an unfortunate and sad scenario...

[My_names_Fred]

Your "spine angle" changes throughout the entire swing. It does in EVERY good golfer's swing. Every good golfer EXTENDS his spine on the backswing. Every good golfer rotates (duh). And every good golfer SIDE TILTS to the left. The worst (the ones who translate way off the ball and have very flat shoulder turns) don't side tilt much, but they still do. The ones who keep their heads very steady side tilt the RIGHT amount for the swing I'd prescribe which makes it easiest to hit the ball, then the ground (the first "fundamental" of playing good golf).

Erik, I think I read all of the posts and I have (another) question about the spine angle. When I try to maintain my spine angle it seems to help me make better contact but when I think of spine angle I am talking about the angle between a line from my waist down thru my legs and another line from my waist up my spine thru my head - like a side on view. If I keep my head still, wouldn't this angle be maintained? Which would mean that my shoulders just rotate around my spine? Or am I way off?

[Stretch]

The confusion arises from incorrect terminology. What is being maintained through the swing is the angle (or inclination) of the golfer's torso relative to the ground. The angle of the spine must change through the swing in order to achieve this.

Moving pictures are worth many words here:

[rudygu]

If S&T; is the greatest thing out there, it should be able to be marketed positively, not by slinging mud at everyone else.

What mud have the S&T; instructors slung? To me, mudslinging consists of personal attacks against one's character. Have you read the S&T; book? After describing in depth the principles of their method and exactly how each element positively effects ballstriking, they compare it to the "conventional" model. In that comparison they simply point what they believe is wrong about that model and show how S&T; improves it. I'm sorry, that is not mudslinging. Am I mudslinging right now because I disagree with you and have taken the time to type it?

As for Erik and Dave here on the forum, I've not seen anything I would define as mudslinging. Neither one has said anything personal about any golf instructor. From what I've seen, they've only pointed out flaws in the teaching methods of conventional instructors and the swing they teach.

[Harmonious]

What mud have the S&T; instructors slung? To me, mudslinging consists of personal attacks against one's character. Have you read the S&T; book? After describing in depth the principles of their method and exactly how each element positively effects ballstriking, they compare it to the "conventional" model. In that comparison they simply point what they believe is wrong about that model and show how S&T; improves it. I'm sorry, that is not mudslinging. Am I mudslinging right now because I disagree with you and have taken the time to type it?

While not a S&T; devotee, I understand and agree with a lot of it. I try to implement Jim Hardy's one-plane swing, which incorporates many S&T; principles. But if someone mentions another teacher that may disagree with Hardy's philosophies (and there are some out there) I wouldn't classify that person as an idiot. I know what works for me, and what doesn't.

On this forum, I would categorize mudslinging as making disparaging comments about other teaching methods, not personal attacks. And it isn't the S&T; instructors so much, it seems to be a number of S&T; aficionados who are so quick to bad mouth other teachers. Faldo is a boob, AJ Bonar is an idiot, Leadbetter ruins golf swings, Michael Breed is screwed up, Kostis knows nothing, on and on and on. So yes, I enjoy the comparison of swing thoughts. I don't enjoy the continual defensive, attacking nature of many of the S&T; folks here. If S&T; works for them, great. If something else works better for me, also great.

[nuck81]

My book came today. I'm anxious to see what it has to say...

[iacas]

But if someone mentions another teacher that may disagree with Hardy's philosophies (and there are some out there) I wouldn't classify that person as an idiot.

I think that's a mischaracterization. Nobody's doing that. There's been no wholesale "that person is a complete idiot." None. There has been "they're an idiot about this."Nothing wrong with that.

Faldo is a boob

Faldo's lost distance because he doesn't understand how extension can help hit the ball higher and farther.

He also doesn't understand the ball flight laws.

AJ Bonar is an idiot

The only thing AJ's been criticized about is the only thing he ever talks about - three inches on each side of the ball where he thinks you rotate the club quite a bit.

Leadbetter ruins golf swings

We didn't invent the name "Lead Poison." And there's been very little talk of David Leadbetter on the forum.

Michael Breed is screwed up

We've shown specifically what.

Kostis knows nothing

Likewise - we've explained why. Ball flight laws and "spine angle" and right knee flex, IIRC.

Nick Faldo won six majors. Peter Kostis coaches good golfers, and David Leadbetter, well, he's marketed himself well and rode Nick Faldo to success. :) Michael Breed's a good player. They're not idiots - they're just literally wrong about some things. I think you're reading more into things than has been given... We're not attacking people. We're attacking their misconceptions and their mistruths. Most of the time it's not an opinion, but rather facts of geometry, physiology, or physics.

My book came today. I'm anxious to see what it has to say...

Take your time with it. Enjoy. Video tape yourself and look at yourself in the mirrors too - a lot of people overdo pieces.

[nuck81]

I hit a bucket this afternoon after reading the first two chapters and using the formula on pg 29 with mixed results. I managed some really nice shots, but had a lot of infuriating misses too. My main miss was a chunk, which is the miss that pisses me off the most lol. I found that I had to really overwork the feeling of straight arms and the lift. Most of my misses were from the feeling that I already had my weight forward, yet had to thrust forward and up to initiate the downswing. How do you push forward if you already are forward? I also was pretty tired after practice. But I had hot a bucket this morning and walked 18 at the par 3 so I had hit a lot of balls already in the heat, but man I felt wrecked after that bucket....

[saevel25]

The closest person i read so far that matches S&T; for alot of things is Jim McLean, it seems he does tremendous amount of research into the golf swing.

[westcyderydin]

I dont have much against the stack and tilt swing. i dont really know much about it except for the weight forward which is the part that i know i do not use in my golf swing.

im not gonna see a guy on a course have something in his swing and say wow this guys swing pattern is stupid.

the thing about stack and tilt as everybody says is that it has a name. this makes it an easy target but it also sets it up more a lot of fan-boyism. that can get annoying, although here is the only place ive had any type of conversation or anything with anyone who follows the stack and tilt method of swinging a golf club.

the only issues with it i have are the people who think its the only way to swing a golf club. its kind of like an instructor who teaches the same swing to of theieverybody regardless r age, physical ability, flexibility, and swing "personality (dont know how to word that)". thats not specific to stack and tilt tho obviously.

[iacas]

i dont really know much about it except for the weight forward which is the part that i know i do not use in my golf swing.

Either you're wrong and you do or you swing the club unlike anyone who has ever been good at golf. You cannot play good golf with your weight back.

the only issues with it i have are the people who think its the only way to swing a golf club. its kind of like an instructor who teaches the same swing to of theieverybody regardless r age, physical ability, flexibility, and swing "personality (dont know how to word that)". thats not specific to stack and tilt tho obviously.

Nobody does that. None of the Stack and Tilt teachers I know, anyway. Stack and Tilt provides a framework of geometry, physics, and physiology. Certain players need some parts, some others need different parts, and some overdo some pieces and need scaled back. We don't teach one swing. If you were to see 10 students on the range of all abilities you could pick our five out because:

a) they're improving b) they understand why their ball does what it does c) they draw the ball d) they hit the ball solidly I've yet to meet a Stack and Tilt instructor who pushes everyone to ONE swing. It's a framework - a "pattern" - and the pieces are almost purely "plug and play" to borrow a term from computing. You'd do well to educate yourself on some of the pieces. I guarantee one or two of them would help you, and if done with a qualified instructor, would likely help you within ten swings.

[westcyderydin]

obviously you need to get your weight forward, i just dont want to keep it there the whole time. this may or may not be what s and t teaches but i really dont know much about what they teach. the only thing ive heard about s and t is on here, ive never met any golfer in my lifetime who is at least openly s and t.


and im not saying that s and t instructors specifically do that. ive never met one so i couldnt say. i am talking more about s and t fanboys who talk about the golf swing like they are on one team and then look down on all the less informed dummys on the other team. that not really how things work because there are like i said more than one way to hit a golf ball. s and t is just one way to go about it.

and all of those things you listed about how your students are doing is good to hear. sounds like youre doing a great job. those are things that i would want every instructor to get their students to do.


that being said it is fun to talk about the golf swing with anybody. many ppl have different opinions which is great, it just gets annoying when it turns into s and t this and s and t that or when things get a little too argumenative. but when youre on a s and t website on the internet that is something that youll run into.

[Stretch]

ive never met any golfer in my lifetime who is at least openly s and t.

If you ever do, make sure to punch him right in the smug mouth while he's going on about swing centers and ball flight laws and all that degenerate nonsense. Next thing you know they'll be wanting to get married! It's disgusting.