Pete Dye, Overrated

[clubchamp]

Originally Posted by pjwalsh606

I agree Pete Dye is overrated. I live in Maryland and a good number of people say PB dye is one of their favorite courses. It is an okay course but i don't think he is at the same level as RTJ or McAllister!

Yeah PB Dye is his son not Pete Dye but the course does have some Pete Dye influence. I think it's a nice course and whenever I find coupons in the paper I will go play it but it is really over played. It's sad because when that course is in good condition I personally think it's great but usually by late june-july it gets really beat up. I probably would say I like Whisky Creek slightly more but I think they are on the same level.

[k-troop]

Pete Dye can kiss my ass.

Played Royal Hawaiian Golf Club (formerly known as Luana Hills) today.  Reminded me why I personally rate it as the hardest golf course on the island (if not in the state).  I hit the first 5 greens in reg--a monumental feat at this course--and was +2.  Average distance from the hole was less than 30 feet, too.  Ballstriking was really solid the entire day, but didn't keep me from driving 5 balls out of play, and 3 of those drives were very good shots.  The kicker was 17:  I hit what I thought was a perfect bomb over the mounds on the right side, and got down there and found...nothing.  Have no idea where the ball went--it narrows pretty well about 290 off the tee, but I had the ball on a perfect line.  Oh well.

I hadn't played the course in a year, and they've tweaked it a bit (moved some tees, etc).  But damn, what a difference it made.  Is it too much to ask to allow players to see where they have to land the ball?

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by k-troop

Pete Dye can kiss my ass.

Played Royal Hawaiian Golf Club (formerly known as Luana Hills) today.  Reminded me why I personally rate it as the hardest golf course on the island (if not in the state).  I hit the first 5 greens in reg--a monumental feat at this course--and was +2.  Average distance from the hole was less than 30 feet, too.  Ballstriking was really solid the entire day, but didn't keep me from driving 5 balls out of play, and 3 of those drives were very good shots.  The kicker was 17:  I hit what I thought was a perfect bomb over the mounds on the right side, and got down there and found...nothing.  Have no idea where the ball went--it narrows pretty well about 290 off the tee, but I had the ball on a perfect line.  Oh well.

I hadn't played the course in a year, and they've tweaked it a bit (moved some tees, etc).  But damn, what a difference it made.  Is it too much to ask to allow players to see where they have to land the ball?

Blind shots have been part of golf for centuries. As long as the course gives you aiming markers or info in the scorecard, I have no problem with this.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by MSchott

Blind shots have been part of golf for centuries. As long as the course gives you aiming markers or info in the scorecard, I have no problem with this.

No problem here, really, either.  Just gets old when it's every other hole.  And no aiming sticks, no scorecard tips on this course.  I think they had a yardage book for sale in the clubhouse for $20.  But I had played this course before a few times, so I didn't think I needed it.  Guess I was wrong.

Seriously, I shot 81 and my ballstriking was nearly perfect.  My driving is never very good, streaky at best, but I hit 12/14 tee shots on perfect lines and with the right shape.  4 just missed the fairway because I misjudged the wind, which was whipping different directions (the course is built in a sort of canyon, and the wind was up).  This course is so narrow you just don't have a lot of room for error--a missed fairway is a ball lost in the jungle on all but one or two holes, and the fairways are pretty small.  Add to that fact that you can't even see the landing spot on several holes, and the doglegs, and it felt pretty unfair.

In full disclosure I did "miss" two drives (both blocks into the jungle).  One of those was a par 5 and I ended up with a 10 footer for birdie anyway; the other was a 3-putt double off of my only poor putt of the day.  But those shots didn't kill me, and they didn't piss me off.  It was the really good shots, that somehow ended up in the jungle anyway, that got me.

[wolfsburg2]

Originally Posted by RemyM

Bulle Rock is a Pete Dye course that opened in 1998 and it is fantastic and fair. The LPGA Championship was played there for 5 years.

http://www.bullerockgolf.com/bullero...p?s_id=1788586

Pound Ridge opened in 2008 and is difficult, and a few holes are very tight, but a great course.

http://www.poundridgegolf.com/

Bulle Rock is AWESOME!

[wolfsburg2]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

People either love or hate Dye courses. I guess I fall into the "hate" category. I really liked TPC Sawgrass, but the original layout is nothing like what you see today. It has been reworked a number of times because of player complaints (remember the quote: "It looks like they buried an elephant on the greens"?). I have also played Red Mountain Ranch in Arizona - The greens were all 3 or 4 level, so if you weren't on the right level, just mark down a three putt. Not a fun day.

Of all the designers, my favorite is Tom Fazio. His courses at Primm Valley at the Nevada/California border and at World Woods in Florida are a pleasure to play. I also like Arnold Palmer/Ed Seay designs, as it seems they are set up to be golfer friendly. A challenge for low hdcps, but not punative for higher hdcps.

I'm with this guy. The couple of Palmer courses I've played including Cherokee Run here in GA are very fun to play. Golf should be enjoyable, I am not surprised that Palmer agrees.

[NuclearMike]

Originally Posted by Ben

Dye Courses I've played. List found on wikipedia... there may be more?

- Carlton Oaks Country Club (Dunes Course)[4] - Santee, CA.

Ugly, can't stand it. That being said, Its hard, but not tricked up hard. It just doesn't fit my eye and I just haven't got the hang of the place yet. Holds first stage PGA QSchool.

- La Quinta Resort and Club (Dunes Course) - La Quinta [5]

- La Quinta Resort and Club (Mountain Course) - La Quinta [6]

- The Westin Mission Hills Resort & Spa (South Course)- Ranch Mirage

All three resort style courses, so not hard at all and quite fun to play!

- PGA West (Stadium Course) - La Quinta

In my top 3 golf courses I've played. PGA QSchool final stage. I would not consider this tricked up, just a good challenge.

- Lost Canyons Golf Club (Shadow Course) - Simi Valley

- Lost Canyons Golf Club (Sky Course) - Simi Valley

Garbage, just not fun. Everyone around here calls this place Lost Balls cause you're gonna lose a grip. These are the only two of the bunch that I'd consider more "unfair" then "difficult".

- Paiute Golf Club Resort (Snow Mountain, Sun Mountain and Wolf Courses) - Las Vegas [34]

Have played all three. Snow and Sun are quite nice and fun. Wolf is the upper class of the three in terms of design and difficulty. I really enjoyed them all. It helps that they are on an Indian reservation and get as much water as necessary to keep them in perfect condition.

I've played all of the Palm Springs area courses as well and don't consider them "tricked-up) but I played them a long time ago.  I think it's his newer efforts that are unnecessarily difficult, at least from what I've read.

[Matt M]

Originally Posted by iacas

Thoughts? Is Pete Dye over-rated as a golf course designer?

I like Sawgrass. But that's about it. I think his earlier courses in general tend to be better than his later ones.

We played the National Club Pro at French Lick's Pete Dye course this year, and it was stupid. Pete Dye seems to confuse "unfair" with "difficult." I've never seen so many good shots get punished, and by "good" I mean "good" - these weren't shots that were pulled or pushed slightly, etc. Some of the fairways were literally eight yards wide and SLOPED quite a bit.

I think he's completely over-rated, and incapable of building a golf course that can be enjoyed.

Again, I'm speaking more of the past 20 years or so, maybe 15, and I've not played even the majority of 'em, but I've seen or walked or played a healthy percentage.

First let me say I haven't played French Lick, but as you know I'm a member at a Dye course.  I don't think he's over-rated some of his course are tricked up a bit but like all the Dye courses I've played I think they seem more difficult the first few times you play them.  Every Dye course I've played, the modern ones anyway, have multiple target areas off the tee usually a large area back from the trouble, then a it tightens up all the way to the area that looks ideal.  If you go for the best spot for your second shot it must be executed correctly or there will be a price to pay.  The part I think you don't seem to prefer are his green complexes which are very penial.  The greens are seperated into a few sections and just off the green are major bunker complexes.  The part of his design that tends to tear up players is his mounding in front of and around the green that tends to deflect shots even good ones away from the green. I'm not always a fan of this style because it seems to punish better players more than average or bad.  But thats what he does.  His older designs are far different from his new ones.

[tristanhilton85]

Most of the Pete Dye courses in the Palm Springs area are pretty good. Both of the LQ resort courses (Mountain and Dunes) as well as the Dye course at the Westin are very playable as Ben and Nuclear Mike have said. The Mountain course in particular is gorgeous. The TPC Stadium course is also a Dye design and is a tough one but not like his newer designs. I've also had the opportunity to play the Dye course at Mission Hills Country Club and that course is a bitch.

[ThominOH]

Pete Dye started off as a Jekyl then turned to Hyde..  Pete's earlier designs were "normal", meaning that a variety of players could enjoy the course, but there was nothing that stood out that made you write home about.. As for the courses in the last 15 years, Pete has gone mental.. LOL  As Phil put it, it's penal target golf.. The pro's can deal with it, but for the average player, they are bad designs, and I agree.. Not sure why today's designers are into this "Pimp my course" mentality..  I like a course designer that allows holes to be played high and drop, or bump and run, or anything in between..

[TourSpoon]

I think that Dye Preserve in Jupiter may be one of his better designs. The first time I played it, I thoroughly enjoyed the whole experience. It was called Cypress Links and soon changed ownership to become The Dye Preserve, which is one of the more exclusive private courses around the area.

[Matt M]

If you want to see Pete Dye at his best the Pete Dye Club in WV is a must. Built on a old strip mine. It's a work of art. I'm obviously Dye fan but Fazio is the modern master. The thing about playing a good Dye course all the time is no other architect will intimidate you.

[jaybo]

We play Peninsula Golf Resort every year in Lancaster, KY.  It is a course that is fun but set up for the most part fair, except for a few holes. (#2 & #5)

All carry

http://peninsulagolf.com/

[TheHumbleGolfer]

Let's not forget that many of the great modern architects were one-time apprentices of Pete Dye's.

Is Dye overrated? No, not at all.  Pete Dye's influence is a major determinant in the way the best modern golf courses have been designed.

Dye's best work, in my opinion, was early in his career when he was more willing/interested in working with what the land gave him.  The Golf Club, Teeth of the Dog and The Honors Course are all exceptional golf courses -- subtle is the name of the game.

[k-troop]

I played Heron Point at the Sea Pines resort in Hilton Head yesterday.  ****ING BRUTAL.

The course is pretty and in phenomenal condition.  And, I'll caveat, that had I seen the course before I would have had a much better time around because I would have known what to do.  But in true Dye fashion, most holes are a guessing game standing on the tee for the first time.  Greens that slope front to back and pinch in severely in the front--from the tee you see a green complex that looks fairly wide, but since you can't see any of the surface you can't tell how tiny the front section is from 185 yards away.  He uses mounds in a way that screws with distance perception.

But hey--if you're ever down in Hilton Head, it's a must play!

[cipher]

Old thread but, the Irish at Whistling is amazing.  I am pretty excited to play the Straits course this year.  IMO they are both incredible courses.

[BugDude]

I played Southern Hills Plantation in Brooksville, FL yesterday and I didn't enjoy the course at all.  Ridiculous mounding, bunkers, and drop offs everywhere.  He ignored the natural lay of the land and manufactured a very unnatural layout.  I won't be going back.  No fun at all.

[cipher]

I played Southern Hills Plantation in Brooksville, FL yesterday and I didn't enjoy the course at all.  Ridiculous mounding, bunkers, and drop offs everywhere.  He ignored the natural lay of the land and manufactured a very unnatural layout.  I won't be going back.  No fun at all.

I have only played one Dye course and will be playing the one right next to it this summer, so my basis is pretty limited here.  I don't think he ignored the natural layout on the one I played, he just manufactures something around it that is in some ways out of this world. I loved it because it was so unique. You have to go into a Dye course in my opinion with the mindset that you are about to play something very unique and just have fun with it.