Creating a deep lag...what should one be "feeling"?

[iacas]

Well if you agree that this drill will make me cast versus create more lag...what is to say about similar drills where they make you swing next to a wall to promote the same movement, etc...?

What similar drills?

I guess I just don't see someone at my handicap and skill level falling into a trap of casting because I am doing an exercise that ultimately will make my wrists/forearms stronger, which will allow me to hold that angle better. I guess time will tell.

You cast now. If you'd prefer to call it something else, go ahead, but the simple truth is that you cast to some degree. You've already "fallen into the trap" - it's just a shallower trap than your typical 22 handicapper.

My biggest problem with the drill is that you're basically strengthening (and training) the opposite muscles from the ones you'll use to "hold the lag." Actually, I take that back - my biggest problem with the drill is that lag drills rarely work. Lag is almost always a result of some other error or problem in your swing... in other words, good lag is a RESULT of some other swing mechanics. Golfers flip, lose lag, throw out the flying wedge, cast (or whatever else you want to call it) because they need to get the club to the ground. They're typically not forward enough, not at the proper distance from the ball (head has translated in a way that they won't get back to the right distance near impact), or they don't get your arms across their chests fast enough.

Also, I don't cast the club IMO, I simply don't hold onto the lag well as the downswing progresses...I think there is a difference.

No, there isn't. You release the angle too soon. You do it "less" than some people but it's the same move. If you want to say that you're not casting because your move is less severe, go for it.

Regarding the spinning hips, when I watch the video I guess it looks like the right move to me..because I am leaning into the ball (which is resisting my movement) and then turning.

Okay. Then keep spinning, keep flipping, and keep hitting across the ball. No, I would suggest that you're not doing it right.

Regarding my head..are you saying you want my head to either remain still or move forward with being linear, versus going down. The head dipping I think is just a result of forcing my hands down....I think.

Your head in the video went backwards. To the left from a face-on perspective. You can say it moves very little, but you're not making a full downswing at all, either. (I almost never care about someone's head dipping during the downswing.)

But again, to get back to the simple version, you're doing it wrong. One of these images is not like the other...

I think of lag as two angles...1) the angle formed by hinging your wrists upward and 2) the hinge formed on the back of your right wrist.

That's correct.

Yeah, that's the challenge when fixing an overswing; you have to decrease the backswing in the arms and wrists without decreasing it in the shoulders.

Thing is, if you look at what an "overswing" is, the solution becomes easier to find.

Most people "overswing" by over-flexing their right elbow. Or by lifting. (Most often it's both, actually.)

method to the madness?

I watched only a few seconds here and there in that video, but I can say already that Stuart likely does the right things. You do not.

If you want to feel better about yourself by convincing yourself that you've done well, go ahead. While I applaud the effort and desire, you seem to have some bad information and you're not going to make effective changes until you get better information.

[majorchamp]

What similar drills?

Granted, these aren't using elastic bands for resistance

good call on the pictures, I do see the difference now.

[majorchamp]

man...I am really screwed up haha

[majorchamp]

well, I guess I will start at square 1 and re-evaluate things. Probably the first drill I should worry about is the swiss ball drill and properly moving my hips into the ball and not spinning. Then work on shortening my swing to get me in better positions so I can maintain that lag angle better on the downswing.

[Mexicanleprican]

what does shortening your swing mean? I thought you create lag with A cocking your wrists in the back swing, B involving the hips last in the back swing and first in the downswing and C keeping your wrist supinated (cocked) when swingiing through the ball.

[delav]

what does shortening your swing mean? I thought you create lag with A cocking your wrists in the back swing, B involving the hips last in the back swing and first in the downswing and C keeping your wrist supinated (cocked) when swingiing through the ball.

At first I thought it was a mistake, but after seeing in it several posts now I'd like to point something out.

This is wrist supination: This is wrist flexion: During the swing, the left wrist needs to move in the ulnar direction, while remaining flexed. Having proper wrist flexion at impact will promote strong ball contact. Supinating at impact however seems like the wrong idea and would encourage flipping/snapping during release.

[Mexicanleprican]

oh on the contrary man, wrist supination and wrist flexion are almost identical motions when swinging. I may be wrong and there may be more then one way to skin a cat but hogan says that you can't supinate that left wrist too much. And the process of supination automatically moves your wrist in the ulnar direction. Pronation is apparently a no no. I am not a pro, so I could be making myself sound stupid but as long as my wrist doesnt straighten (extend/pronate) out until well after impact the ball really flies.

[delav]

wrist supination and wrist flexion are almost identical motions.

They absolutely aren't.

Supination/Pronation has to do with the rotation of the forearm, dictated by hand position (axial rotation about radius/ulna) in relation to the elbow. Flexion and extension are movements at the wrist joint only, flexing or extending the wrist joint with no relationship to rotation of the forearm. Hogan, although a fantastic player and theorist of the swing, was not an anatomist or ergonomist... and he could have been wrong in his terminology. Back to OP Topic - I do think that working on a hip bump and slide rather than a spin (as evident in the ball, band contraption above) will help resist the OTT move and generate the right movement of the hands and handle at the top.

[Mexicanleprican]

you are 100% correct on the motions, these are based on basic anatomical position. When going through a golf swing though, its pretty hard to get a good supination without involving some flexion. I guess it is a combination of the two that I am talking about.

[iacas]

man...I am really screwed up haha

No, you've got a really solid swing that's 95% of what you want in terms of lag and things. You're just after the 5%. It's tough, and I hope you don't take anything I've said as beating you up. I'm trying to get some good information to you, and I like the give and take and the discussion. Nothing I said was intended as "you are really screwed up." Believe me, if you ask about my swing I can tell you ten things I need to do better.

what does shortening your swing mean?

Most of the time, it means not overflexing your elbows or lifting your arms off your chest.

I thought you create lag with A cocking your wrists in the back swing, B involving the hips last in the back swing and first in the downswing and C keeping your wrist supinated (cocked) when swingiing through the ball.

Supination is not the same as cocking your wrist.

This is wrist supination:

And neither of those are wrist cocking (which delav, I'm sure you know, but which our confused Irish/Mexican friend does not).

Supinating at impact however seems like the wrong idea and would encourage flipping/snapping during release.

Agreed, in general. Supination is basically accumulator #3 in The Golfing Machine. There's some degree of it in the swing, but there's not a bunch.

oh on the contrary man, wrist supination and wrist flexion are almost identical motions when swinging.

No, they're not. Look, you've just got on the forum, and while we welcome discussion regardless of handicap, at some point you should take a step back and think "I'm a 15 and this delav fellow can give me a shot a hole and beat me, and he's got a lot of posts here, and maybe he knows what he's talking about..."

You've read Hogan's book. Hogan's book is both good and bad. He says he did things he didn't do in there and he says he didn't do things he clearly did. It's great overall, but you have to read it with the proper understanding.

I may be wrong and there may be more then one way to skin a cat but hogan says that you can't supinate that left wrist too much.

You absolutely can. You can kick #3 too soon, you can kick #3 too much, etc. You absolutely can supinate too much. Duck hooks (left to left) typically have too much supination as one component.

They absolutely aren't.

Mexi, listen to delav here.

Back to OP Topic - I do think that working on a hip bump and slide rather than a spin (as evident in the ball, band contraption above) will help resist the OTT move and generate the right movement of the hands and handle at the top.

Yep, agreed.

you are 100% correct on the motions, these are based on basic anatomical position. When going through a golf swing though, its pretty hard to get a good supination without involving some flexion. I guess it is a combination of the two that I am talking about.

I humbly disagree. Hold your arm out in front of you. Make your left wrist flat. Now rotate your wrist while keeping it flat. There you go - supination...

[Mexicanleprican]

well put. I am going to have to once again put my foot in my mouth. I'll stop posting until I know what I am talking about.

[ohiolefty]

Bent right wrist (or left wrist for us lucky people) at impact. And you know it when you thump that sucker and it takes off like a howitzer missile instead of a 'ball'. Don't wave at it, you aren't swinging a broom. Go see a PGA pro if you can't thump it. Hmmph.

[nevets88]

...my biggest problem with the drill is that lag drills rarely work...

You mean like the pump 3 times then release drill? If this is true, it's kind of soothing to hear, as it's never really helped me in any consistent, permanent way.

[majorchamp]

No, you've got a really solid swing that's 95% of what you want in terms of lag and things. You're just after the 5%. It's tough, and I hope you don't take anything I've said as beating you up. I'm trying to get some good information to you, and I like the give and take and the discussion. Nothing I said was intended as "you are really screwed up." Believe me, if you ask about my swing I can tell you ten things I need to do better.

Screwed up is how I feel about it, I know you didn't say it :) Just trying to find solutions/answers to my swing problems is frustrating, because one place says spin the hips, another said move them laterally, etc...

I haven't taken anything you have said as beating me up...its that good information I love to eat up...its just difficult to process when there is tons of bad information out there..and even when I am creating "drill videos" that in reality are probably doing more harm then good (though in deep realm of my brain I feel like it might work).

[iacas]

Screwed up is how I feel about it, I know you didn't say it :) Just trying to find solutions/answers to my swing problems is frustrating, because one place says spin the hips, another said move them laterally, etc...

I agree it can be confusing. Ben Hogan said "bump and turn" but he moved his hips laterally more than almost anyone, ever.

The hips control the weight distribution of your body. Since you need to be 90% or so at impact, they go forward. The less they go forward, the more likely a golfer is to hit across the ball from out to in. Challenge anything and everything I say all you want. I don't care, and quite enjoy it... there is a lot of bad information out there. I take a scientific approach - if I'm wrong, tell me and back it up. I try to do the same to others.

[tm22721]

Look at any good golfer at the top. Note the geometric relationship between left arm, right arm and the club. You must maintain those angles down to where the shaft is parallel to the ground. The feeling as you start down is to keep your left arm 'high and out there" and the right arm folded. The problem is that torque will try to destroy the angles. You must fight it.

[majorchamp]

regarding the lag being assisted by the hips moving laterally...is a swing thought or "feel" to achieve is when the hips start to shift...focus on the left hip moving UP and out, and while the left hip is moving "up" also making the left shoulder feel like its raising up, which in turn allows the arms to drop into the slot? So the left pocket of your pants should begin vertically raising.

I was trying this a bit last night..it kind of helped me get the feeling of moving those hips laterally versus spinning them..basically trying to create tension (in the muscle) of the left hip.

[Stretch]

It's just plain hard to do.

That's going to be your goal for the next couple of years ... and for the rest of your life ...