Heres why I believe a Slice is caused by AN OPEN FACE!

[slicer2scratch]

As I said before I dont mind debating iacas as he gives reasons for doing things and clearly knows the golfswing...
I dont agree with him .. but as he gives his arguments I learn from it..
I m not on here to make people look bad or anything like that..
I think the more we can improve golfers the more golf jobs there will be

[Williamevanl]

See thats were I believe SOME people get confused you see...

Well the face alone can not make the ball go right either. Everyone understands what you mean when you say that a slice requires that the face be open to the path. By saying the path is 100% responsible we don't mean that that face isn't currently in some way responsible,(for the slice) it is, but it can remain relatively unchanged while the path is fixed resulting in a desirable ball flight. So we say that because it is all that needs changed it is 100% of the problem.

So maybe in the example of the straight slice it would be clearer to say that the path is responsible for 100% of the problem.(instead of slice)

[motteler621]

I haven't read this whole thread but I don't really get the reason to debate over it. Seems like you agree slicer that spin, fade or draw, is created by face relative to path. No matter what for a slice you are going to have to fix the path at some point cause if you only fix the face first, people will just start hitting pulls and whos to say you won't have to fix the face "again" after you adjust the path. If you fix the path first, you might have to fix the face after that but you won't be going back to adjust the path "again"

[Stretch]

What's funny is that we're even having this debate at a time when there are commonly-available and (relatively) inexpensive tools that can measure path angle, face angle and ball flight with millimetric precision. And the actual data validates Phil and Erik's position. Past that, we're into the usual science versus faith quagmire, with true believers like S2S thrashing around in post hoc propter hoc and general incoherence.

[Williamevanl]

Hmm maybe an analogy:
Imagine we want a car to idle along at ten miles an hour smoothly. Currently, the tires are flat and the car is going too slow. We can change the amount of gas the car gets and the air pressure in the tires.

We would say the tires are 100% responsible for the car not being up to speed because fixing the tires alone will get the car at proper idle speed.
You would argue that that doesn't make sense because the car isn't going fast enough because it's not getting enough gas.(ball can only slice if the face isn't closed enough) A car can only go that slow if it's not getting enough gas so how can the tires be 100% responsible? You would then increase the amount of gas the car gets creating a non desirable situation(bumpy ride but going 10mph) then you would fix the tires and following that you would re-adjust the gas.

We of course would just fix the tires.

Getting the car up to speed = eliminating slice
Getting the car up to speed driving smoothly = desired ball flight

I realize now that because you are only concerning yourself with eliminating the slice(initially) and we are trying to actually fix the ball flight we have this misunderstanding. You are correct though that if your only concern is eliminating the slice then yes, you could do it with face and face alone(without changing the path) You would of course create pulls, pull draws.

When we say fix a slice we mean creating a desired ballflight.

[iacas]

You actually dont answer the question on what can make the ball go right path alone or face alone>? I know your implicating but you wont say it...Look its simple one word answer

I've answered the question several times. Additionally, Google "

ball flight laws " and click the [url=http://thesandtrap.com/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws]top article[/url. Note the author. The ball is going right in the case of most slicers because of the PATH. The clubface is relatively square (or even closed) to the target, and the ball curves to the right because of the path. If you changed NOTHING about the face and hit the ball with a straight path (at impact) and the ball will go straight or draw. Swing out at the ball a fair amount and the ball will hook (go left). All with the same face. What causes the ball to SPIN? The face relative to the path. You're being far, far too vague about "ball going right." If the ball STARTS right then that's the face. If the ball CURVES right but starts straight or left then, as an instructor, I work on path, because the face (as with 90%+ of slicers) is square or closed and the path is out to in.

And actually the whole reason im in this post is because its not obvious to most..

I don't think anyone here is saying that, and I think it's silly of you to assume that it's a big problem here on this particular forum. I know you were somewhat "invited" here by william, but for you to come here and say things in an argumentative tone and without being able to even clearly spell out your point of view or understand what others have written just doesn't come across well.

As for Phil its easy to criticize over the interenet , I promise he doesnt know me or what I have been through and MOST DEFINATELY would not disrespect me in person!

You misspelled the word definitely. I don't see pointing out the fact that you can't spell as "disrespecting" you, and I guarantee you I would (and Phil probably would) say the same types of things to you in person.

See thats were I believe SOME people get confused you see...

Nobody said that. You seem to be having trouble interpreting what people are saying.

wether its a good shot or even a good swing

If that's how you've read my posts saying it's all the path, you've not really understood my posts, which is disappointing, as they're not exactly written in a dense fashion.

As I said before I dont mind debating iacas as he gives reasons for doing things and clearly knows the golfswing...

I don't think you understand what I'm saying well enough to disagree with them.

[slicer2scratch]

I may also have to apologize for entering in this forum maybe lazy in my explanation.Reason being I had explained my stance and argued it several times in the other forum. Just dont have the time or frankly dont want to do it all over again.The thread in the other forum was whats the root cause of a slice, face or path?... Its pretty mixed as to what people choose..I stated why I believe its face. Theres another forum I asked Will to join that as of now seems to be FACE camp.

I believe in a real world lesson theres alot that goes into fixing the motion overall.The fun type of question for debate was ROOT CAUSE of a slice face or path? I know what you believe and what most of this forum believes>!
COOL. Im all for listening and learning, SEE I have an open mind and I am actually quite peaceful.
Will just came off as the sandtrap HAS the 100 percent truth answer of path..I just simply dont believe that.

[iacas]

whats the root cause of a slice, face or path?

That question is in no way long enough to give an answer.

Spin is always face relative to path. But that's not an answer. If it's a pull-slice or a straight-slice, the answer is path. If it's a push-slice the answer might be face (though if the push is only two degrees and the path is 10 degrees, then it's still path primarily). You're not asking a good question. And we've tried to work around that by answering the questions. Again, 90%+ of golfers slice with a face that's square or closed. Fixing the clubface in these instances is, frankly, stupid.

The fun type of question for debate was ROOT CAUSE of a slice face or path?

You don't seem to understand why that's a poor question.

Will just came off as the sandtrap HAS the 100 percent truth answer of path..I just simply dont believe that.

Neither do any of us, which is why we've never said anything like that.

[slicer2scratch]

Cool then we agree on the last statement we can move on...

AS you see now the question maybe stupid and not able to answer>?
Its one of the hottest topics overthere though.

Also whats the ROOT CAUSE of a slice...
You thinks its a poor question because you take the opposite stance..
IMO why the path is bad was to compensate for an otherwise ball that would start right and go farther right due to the overly open clubface.

[iacas]

Cool then we agree on the last statement we can move on...

Look, you've not even clearly given the question.

I can make the ball slice or hook or go straight with any clubface angle. Separately, I can make the ball slice or hook or go straight with any path.

Also whats the ROOT CAUSE of a slice...

90%+ of the time we see a slicer, their face is relatively square or even closed to the target. Thus, you fix the path.

What causes a slice? The face being open to the path. 100% of the time. God knows what question you're asking...

You thinks its a poor question because you take the opposite stance..

No, I think it's a poor question because you've not asked a good question. I gave you two answers based on two variations of the question. That's what makes it a poor question - nobody really knows what you're asking.

IMO why the path is bad was to compensate for an otherwise ball that would start right and go farther right due to the overly open clubface.

Great. And I've already said "that's in the past." You fix what the golfer has now, not what he had that led to his current swing.

I'm done repeating myself.

[slicer2scratch]

Dont repeat I know your stance....
You answered how you would FIX a slicer...GOOD answer (wether we agree or not)
Take a compliment! Lifes easier that way.

My question (that you dont like)
Whats the root cause of a slice(not how do you fix what they have)

I say the path is the way it is due to them
compensating for a ball that would start right and go right due to overly open clubface.
(ie. Root cause is OPEN FACE)

Thats the cause of the bad path...
You say who cares fix what they have...

COOL. want to end this conversation now>?

[max power]

And I say that no beginner/amateur/hacker that I have played with adjusts the path of their swing because of a slice and/or open face. Every beginner I have seen slices because of the path. Because that's the way they swing, and what happens when they try to "whack" the ball.

So I disagree with you 100%.

[iacas]

My question (that you dont like)

For the last time, it's a poor question. It's incomplete. The cause of a push-slice (face, assuming the push is big enough) is different than the root cause of a pull-slice or a straight-slice. The latter two occur 90%+ of the time.

You seem to be using the word "root" to mean "what did they do in the past to make their path terrible?" and I've said several times now that's irrelevant. As an instructor you fix what the golfer does NOW, not what they did in the past to lead them to where they are now. Unless you can invent a time machine, worrying about the past is pointless. If you are insistent upon using the word "root" to mean the past (i.e. "what they did originally that led to their current swing?"), then I'd say this: more people swing outside in than hit the ball with an open clubface when they first take up the game. But beyond that, I don't care, because it's in the past. If this is the only thing you plan to discuss here, then I suppose this is goodbye. If it's not, welcome.

And I say that no beginner/amateur/hacker that I have played with adjusts the path of their swing because of a slice and/or open face.

That's been my experience as well, but I will point out that we've taught beginners and all of them begin making good contact and drawing the ball. The primary directives? Weight forward, hands in.

But again, kinda pointless to discuss the past when you're trying to help a golfer now...

[zeg]

My question (that you dont like)

I agree with Erik and others that this is not a complete question, and that its answer if it's made more specific is unlikely to be helpful.

The physical cause of a slice is contact with a face that's open relative to the swing path. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement about that. What's the "root cause" of that? There really isn't going to be a succinct answer to that question that's more satisfying than "a poor swing." It depends on how it's slicing and what the golfer is doing. The reason it's going to be unhelpful to answer is that it doesn't really matter why the golfer has poor form, he just needs to work on proper form. Finally, I'm very skeptical of this idea that the OTT move is a response to club face position in other than an occasional case. There's a lot of mechanics that go into the swing, and most beginning golfers (myself included) have them so wrong that the OTT part is not just an adjustment, it's built into the swing. It's counterintuitive to swing your arms by starting with your lower body, which is a critical component of a proper swing. That's also why I'm inclined to agree that a path-first approach is best, since you're going to have to work on the major swing components. Get those in place first, and the club face position is going to be a relatively smaller adjustment once you've got a swing that is capable of a repeatable controlled trajectory. Arm-first OTT swings are just too unpredictable.

[tristanhilton85]

This thread is a joke... I think this guy is just seeing how many times he can get Erik to repeat himself.

Like I said before, I know that my slices are caused by path... that is why this is what I work on the most... just got back from a range session right now where the majority of the time spent was working on coming from the inside.

[iacas]

This thread is a joke... I think this guy is just seeing how many times he can get Erik to repeat himself.

What's the record we have to beat? We've gotta be close.

[Shanks A Million]

Finally, I'm very skeptical of this idea that the OTT move is a response to club face position in other than an occasional case. There's a lot of mechanics that go into the swing, and most beginning golfers (myself included) have them so wrong that the OTT part is not just an adjustment, it's built into the swing. It's counterintuitive to swing your arms by starting with your lower body, which is a critical component of a proper swing. That's also why I'm inclined to agree that a path-first approach is best, since you're going to have to work on the major swing components. Get those in place first, and the club face position is going to be a relatively smaller adjustment once you've got a swing that is capable of a repeatable controlled trajectory. Arm-first OTT swings are just too unpredictable.

Over the top is quite common, and in other sports as well. People have trouble with a medium not aligned with themselves, like bowling and darts. In both cases, people will look down the middle of their target, but the throw will be made from the right (or left) side of the body. That's why people often pull darts and bowling balls, they're trying to correct, instead of aiming properly. Both of these, interestingly, are sports I play very well.

Golf is no different. The target line is on the ground, and out in front of you. Your body wants to apply the force toward the target, but the ball is out in front of your body, and on the ground, so you try to apply the force down your own body line. When you do this, in order to hit the ball, you must swing from the outside in. This is why people flip as well, the ball is on the ground, and we want to get it in the air. We need to learn to apply the force on the proper line in golf, as in bowling and darts.

[Zeph]

This is just silly. To the owner of this thread, please take a while to read the Definitive Club Face Angle & Swing Path on Ball Flight Thread and The Ball Flight Laws article .

You cannot say that path or clubface is the sole cause for a ball going right, because either can be the reason, or both. Based on your questions (if we can call it such) and posts, you don't even make an effort to try to understand what people are telling you. The slice (ball curving to the right) can be a result of a number of different clubface positions and swingpaths. What the most common problem is though, is the swingpath going out to in. Root is a poor choice of word, because it implies that it's universal to every person hitting a slice, which it is not. Some hit the ball with an open clubface and square path, but most hit the ball with a square or closed clubface and swingpath going out to in.

There is no one fix for a ball going left or right, there are far too many details which have to be clarified first. What will really help you in understanding what everyone are saying is to understand and learn the proper ball flight laws. The links are farther up in my post. With that knowledge, you can explain the reason for any ball flight out there. Pull, hook, push, fade, slice, you name it. Anything can be explained. We can't explain the body positions and why the person swinging the club is doing it, that's the second part of fixing a problem. First thing you have to know is how the ball flies and understanding what makes it fly that way. There are a total of 9 different ball flights you can hit, no more, no less. All 9 flights have one unique combination of clubface angle and swingpath angle. Not in degrees, but in relation to eachother and the body alignment.

There are Trackman data to confirm this, videos on Youtube, articles, pictures, explanations, all of which you have been presented with in this thread. There is just no way to not comprehend this if you really took your time to try understanding it. All you do is keep posting the same phrases over and over, ignoring the answers time and time again. If I didn't have more belief in people, I'd say you're a troll.